Hi, I was wondering if anyone has used the 15k stone found here>>Japanese Whetstone Sharpening Stone 15000 Grit Resinoid Metalmaster Stone | eBay I was thinking of buying this because of the price/grit. I have been considering the c12k or imperial la roccia. any info will help.
Thank you in advance,
Jim
I've tried it. It's maybe an 8K, certainly not a 15K. There might be 15K regions in the thing, but there are also a lot of giant particles which seem to have been added for cosmetic reasons. I wasn't able to determine if the purple bits or the greenish blobs were responsible, but it doesn't matter. The deep gouges this stone leaves in your bevel are visible without magnification. Not a desirable result from a finisher.
I dubbed this thing a "Hone Shaped Object" and tossed it in a junk box in case I ever need a gift to give to an enemy.
Wow, that sounds pretty awful. Did you try to return it since it clearly does not match its description?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecl
First, could you please tell us what else you have or are considering getting? That would help us to advise you on what you should consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSr
Just an FYI, the Chinese hone is a natural rock so don't consider it to be a 12k or any other k. Regarding the fraudia la rockia, in my opinion the hype from the shills should not be trusted.
Hi, I appreciate all the info guys. I'll give you guys a little background on me. I have been a carpenter for most my life, worked in a machine shop for some time always been hands on. I have been sharpening for years but razors is a whole new world to me. I catch on fast and have a knack for learning especially when I am passionate about something. I have been honing for no more than 3-4 months and I shave off my sharpening. I feel no tugging just nice swipes with the razor stroking between 1-2 inch long strokes. I have a Norton 220/1k, 4/8k, a few Coticules, one of them little thuringians that come in the wood box. I have a desire to keep climbing in grit. I get good shave off all my stones, I'm not claiming to be a master in fact I can only judge from my skills. Actually I did buy a "shave ready" razor of eBay which was claimed to be honed up to 16k but I surpassed that so I'm Leary on that being true. So pretty much I'd like to find a step up after the coticule. Once again I'd like to thank all you guys! It's awesome to have this support. I'm glad I didn't go with my impulse and buy that 15 k!!!
Looks like you are on very much the right path.
The Nortons - perfect.
Coticule and a boxed Thuri. Also perfect.
You have a few options but none of them are budget options.
Coticule is an odd stone, It sits in it's own band of finishing types and when you get the edges right on one the edge will feel buttery, Like there is no edge. You can improve the polish of a coticule edge with pastes. You can't use another hone after a coticule as the nature of the abrasive (fine garnet crystals) leaves a unique shaped finish on the edge. Using another stone removes the geometry that coti's create. It's why a Coti edge can feel as buttery but shave very well. You also have to be careful with just how abrasive your pastes are, Soft abrasive pastes like chrome oxide can be effective. Purist coti users sometime scoff at the idea of pastes after finishing with a coti!
There are several synthetics that will improve on an 8K norton edge.
The naniwa 12K is probably the most common. And the next stage after that is the Suehiro 20K. Sharpton also do the glass series that finish in very high numbers most of the people finishing with super high grits past 12K seem to be using the Suehiro.
Suehiro Gokumyo 20k | TomoNagura.Com | Keith V. Johnson
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...0k-review.html
Fine finishing naturals that are a safe bet and finish well are.
Translucent or Black Arkansas.
Zulu grey
A larger Thuri (would make finishing easier).
Japanese naturals (Jnats). I know very little about these.
Lapping film can be rated into astronomical grit ratings. There however is a stage where lapping film can take an edge beyond comfortable an into scary sharp.
Pastes can be purchased that work really well. All pastes need a dedicated strop or either canvas linen or leather. You can only use 1 grade of paste per strop so as to avoid contamination.
Chrome oxide is cheap and easy to get. The paste straight razor designs sell is some of the best. Kremer pigments also make a very fine powder pigment that can be used either dry or mixed with light oil to work as a paste.
CBN (cubic boron nitride) powder is also reported to be very good at leaving a smooth edge.
Diamond gets mixed reviews. If used very sparingly is can work brilliantly and very quickly. If you over strop on diamond pastes it can ruin an edge and make it harsh very quickly.
The truth be told, If you own multiple coti's and a thuri you are probably almost as high as you can go. It becomes a race for smoothness once you get the basics down, to get to a stage where you get totally smooth irritation free shaves. Buying more hones a this stage isn't for any other reason than to own them! We lovingly refer to this as HAD (Hone Acquisition Disorder). One of several collection based habits we often try to hide from our wives!
Now you can consider me an ennemy that needs punishment , so when you have time , send this Hone shaped 15 K object to meQuote:
I dubbed this thing a "Hone Shaped Object" and tossed it in a junk box in case I ever need a gift to give to an enemy.
You will feel much better when you dispose from it
Spend around $140ish for a 16K Shapton glass. Watch Glen's video on Shapton glass hones. The 16-K only takes about 5 or six laps to get a great polished edge. Strop, shave & there you go. I know it is a big investment, I am getting one near my birthday but I want to take my honing to that next level.
Shapton also has a 15-K hone in a different series for around $100.00
Dave "Slawman" Huffman
I was thinking about buying a shapton, I have been watching for them on eBay but I don't know much about them. I don't know much about them and I see the prices and especially their lapping plate price shocked me!! As far as I know about them they have a certain thickness of abrasive material backed by glass? Now not to ask dumb questions but do you have to have special lapping plates for them? I'm going to do more research on these but figured I'd ask you about it. I have another stone I bought and it's supposed to be a turkey stone. I'm going to throw some pics up for you guys to check out. The stone is really cool I used it a couple times and it seems to cut fairly fast for how fine it appears but I have learned not to judge a stone on touch alone. Anyhow I can't say enough about how much I appreciate you all!!!
You can lap a Shapton Glass stone on either diamond plates or wet/dry sandpaper but at 6 laps per finish, you don't need to do that very often!
Looks pretty cool. How hard was it to lap? Does it slurry easily?
I've sharpened off crazier looking stuff. Some successfully, some not.
It was fairly easy to lap, though if you look at the last pic bottom right corner it has that weird black spot it's like nasty oil stain that runs deep? It appears that one of the previous owners tried to lap it out and now that planes of the rest of the stone. Anyhow I couldn't justify lapping all that good stone away for a square inch of space. I have not tested it throughly yet but I am going to be focusing on it for the next few days to see if it's a keeper. As far as slurry, I hit it with a diamond plate and it does seem to have a nice milky white slurry that builds up pretty fast. I hope I can fit this stone in my routine. Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
P.s. Sry about all the pics I ain't the greatest on the iPad lol
So it depends on what you are after. What is more, to you?
You have back away from the finishing stone trap, where you are using several finishing stones, with no direction, and no knowledge if you are moving forward or back. Few natural finishers are finer than 8k.
The safe bet, is the Naniwa 12k, bullet proof, dependable edge at a reasonable cost. As said, adding that with the synthetic progression you now have, you are set for life.
From a Naniwa 12k you can easily jump to any Natural finisher, and back if it does not work out.
But you really need to think about, what it is you are after and what you budget is. Unlimited budget, Naturals will easily relieve you of cash and few will best a 12k super stone edge.
Add some paste and you start circling another black hole, though much less costly.
Really, you sound like you already have all you need, except more experience learning what you already have. If you have been woodworking for some time, this advice is not new. You can be a woodworker or a tool collector and some are both.
The Naniwa 12k is the safest bet and will benefit you no matter where you go from there.
It’s not the stone…
Euclid440, you're totally correct I know where I am with the stone chase, so here's my goal I am going to get rid of everything except in my opinion my best coti and the norton set and like you said get the 12 k super? I will be the first to admit I went crazy on stones! I just love getting into checking all the differences I find from stone to stone. I check the scratch patterns and such on my microscope and to me it's exciting testing different methods, hones, materials etc. The reason I'm asking all these questions is I need to be more practical and minimize. After I have my core system complete I'd like to have fun testing different stones just for the enjoyment of mastering them. Like I said I get good shaves but a good shave to me is probably far different from you, I am not afraid to admit my experience in razor honing is far from a master level but I am very mechanically inclined and have a deep thirst for learning. I really want to thank you for your reply's because you give it straight and to the point. So I'm thinking the super and more practice.
Or you could do like I did. Create a natural progression set of hones and also a synthetic progression set of hones. Sometimes I want to kick it old school and sometimes I'm in more of a hurry to get 'er done.
Sorry, can't come up with a really good justification for that right now but that's how I have them separated. Makes sense, right? :)
This place is not good for suggesting that you NOT try new/different hones LOL.
I wouldn't sell any of the Coticules just yet.
Those particular stones have a learning curve with them. And it's not uncommon to be able to get more from one as you get more experience. Wait until you are certain that the stone you plan on keeping is the best performer. It'll take at least a few months testing edges to get to a stage where you can make an educated choice. I've only recently picked up one (April) and it's taken some learning to get it to the stage where my edges are nice. And I think my stone has more to offer yet. It's certainly not a rock you can just use and master after reading an online how to guide.
The 12K Naniwa is a cracking stone. It leaves a very nice edge, and if you do want to use naturals the 12K leaves a near mirror finish that is truly ready for even the weakest cutting natural stones. If you read the how to guide on one of these from a reputable source then 99% of the time that information can be copied into your honing style.
Also the thuri is probably worth holding onto as well. There will be times when you will want to test what other edges feel like, Or you get a razor that just won't sit right on the hone like a big smiling wedge, In those situations the thinner boxed rocks can be really useful. It also means you won't get the urge to go out and spend money on one again if it's sat there unused! And they make fantastic travel hones.
With the Coti's you don't like as well try using them under running water to finish hone. & I am now not worrying about slurry. Just use a coarser stone & don't wear down your Coti so fast. Check out Dr Matt's Coti videos. I did & my Coti has came to life for me using his methods. I guess that first sentence should read try it on ALL your Coti's.
With the "TURKEY" stone I would soak it in Dawn dish washing soap & some water. It may help get the dark spot out.
Slawman
This thread is all over the place so I'll just address one thing for now. I have a hard time reconciling the concept of "easy to lap" with a Turkish oil stone. They tend to be quite hard. If that is in fact oil deep in the hone surface, that also suggests that it is only an "alleged" Turkish stone but not actually one.
Another issue. I really like the Shapton DGLP lapping plate, but it is not necessary for lapping or refreshing the Shapton 16k. Any diamond plate or even w/d sandpaper can be used in its place.
I didn't send it back. I figured the hassle of shipping to Japan and trying to get a refund would exceed the dollar amount I'm out. So I'm chalking it up to experience. Besides, I've bought some very good JNats from MetalMaster and don't want to poison the well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Anyway, my current route is to hit one or more JNats after a synthetic 8K. I've dropped the Naniwa SS 10 & 12 because their random geometry annoys me. My thinking was that the "resinoid 15K" would be a good bridge from 8K to the Gokumyo 20K, but it was not to be. Maybe I'll take another look at the 10K and/or 15K Gokumyo models eventually, but I've been getting some terrific edges lately from the JNats and I'm kind of enjoying the process of getting to know these stones better.
I don't understand what you mean by random geometry of the superstone 10 and 12k, but they are perfectly fine for serving as precursors to the Gok20k. If you mean the odd swelling that can happen with the superstones, this is overcome by handling them the same way each time. I prefer to lap them when I am finished with them so that they are in there wet state. That way the next time I use them they will be closest to flat at time of use.
I also have the Gok10 and 15k and they work quite well. None of them require many laps to get the job done and if you overdo it you may end up with a chipped edge.
