smooth vs sharp - how to

okay. im still kinda new to razor honing so would like to try and better understand the difference between ‘smooth’ and ‘sharp’. and more importantly how to attain either upon desire.

sharp does not necessarily mean smooth, right? I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. will this make the shave smoother as well as a little sharper? if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps? or will this just take the razor back down from 12k to a lower/lesser edge? do you strop some extra laps on purpose?

I hear words used like ‘smooth’ and ‘buttery’ but how do you attain that? personally im okay with losing a small amount of keenness for a gentler shave. as an example, feather DE blades are known for being super sharp but im (personally) just fine using derby or astra blades. they may not be as sharp as feather but they still cut through hair just fine.

what do you do to get the edge more comfortable? id love to hear everyones process, try them all, and see what works best for me.

thanks!
-s.

I think a better "verbage" for your question might be 'smooth' vs. 'keen'.

I have seen it described, but it doesn't really do it justice. The best way to see the difference is to hone a blade to 8k, then shave. Afterwards, do a few laps on the 12k. The 8k will be more "comfortable".

"buttery" is basically comparing your shave to cutting butter with a hot knife. No resistance and little sensation of the blade on the face. This is far buried in the "YMMV" area, depending on coarseness of hair and the sensitivity of your skin. Having good lather will also make the world of difference.

I would recommend against a 16k if you are looking for a smoother, more comfortable edge. Particularly when starting out in honing. 16k is not a cheap finisher and 12k will probably satisfy your balance of "keen" and "smooth".

Let me explain it with a simple pic

Attachment 250022


That is Sharp


The same thing is going on at the edge of a SR, only at a microscopic level, you need to remove all the striations and get as even straight smooth edge as possible.. It really is that simple..

There are many theories on how this is accomplished :p

The only one that I absolutely know works is that the more honing you do the better at it you get

Keenness is often times accused of harshness,,, it is most likely bad honing technique...

thanks for the quick responses dinnermint and gssixgun. if you dont mind my asking, what do you both do to 'finish' your own personal razors? im not asking what you might do for someone else. but what you personally do to your own before you consider it ready to shave? anything different?

There is virtually no difference in my routine for personal vs professional honing

one thing that I did not mention is stropping

Stropping does more for the final feel on the face then many give it credit for, becoming HIGHLY proficient at stropping makes a world of difference to "Smooth"

Forget the 16k, the 12k is more than enough to get a sharp and smooth edge. Instead invest in time, the more time you spend on the hones the smoother your shaves will be.

A lot of the feeling of the edge is produced by your finish hone and stropping. In a recent post a member did state that his stropping could improve the "feel" of his razor. I have to agree that this is quite likely. I have been know to strop on cerium oxide to make an edge smooth. Some hones produce what I would call a prickly shave. Some of it is of course in the hands of the operator, but there is a portion that goes back to the hone. Coticules and Escher hones both have reputations for smooth edges. To be honest, in the correct hands you can get a pretty darn smooth shave from a Norton 8K. So if you go through the old JaNorton thread and the videos and can get your razor nice and smooth off the Norton 8K, you will be able to get just a tiny bit more with a Naniwa 12K or one of the other super finishers, coticule, escher, Goku, Zulu, Goldfisch, La Lune, the list just goes on and on. One of the great places to try all this out is at a multi day meet.

I have friend who is an old time barber and he explained how over sharpening can give a poor uncomfortable shave. We all heard about flash on the blade and if you watch video's they show running the blade over your thumb nail or once or twice lightly over a hone. I have used a Suehiro 20 k, Escher, surgical black ark, chromium oxide and now a Lv5+ JNat.. For smoother, more comfortable shaves I have found the Escher or my Jnat give the best results. It is very important to learn the correct way to use them with slurry. Once you do, the shave will be heaven.

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Originally Posted by sloanwinters

sharp does not necessarily mean smooth, right? I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. will this make the shave smoother as well as a little sharper? if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps? or will this just take the razor back down from 12k to a lower/lesser edge?

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You have to assess why you need to smooth the edge. Is it because you have reached the limit of your 12k ? or is it because you have used too much pressure & mashed up the edge making it like the serrated knife. Or did you use too many strokes ? also a way to degrade an edge.

After 12k I go to a 20k. 10- 20 strokes & shave test, post stropping. Sometimes after that 3 strokes on my finest Jnat with no water will give me the 'smooth' you are talking about but I figure that just means a tad too many strokes on the 20k as its not always needed.

There is a tipping point where a blade is good enough to shave with or it is optimal for the user's skill level. For me 12k is not quite comfortable enough but I could get by if I used some CrO afterwards. For sensitive skin you may need to juggle things some more. To quote gssixgun, "There are many theories on how this is accomplished".

Is your razor giving a comfortable shave ? Does it feel sharp, but harsh ? For a guy who prefers Derbys over Feathers I'd recommend go up to the 12k level then try stropping a bit on chrom-ox to smooth out the edge. If it is not giving you a good shave than worry about sharp first, then when you achieve sharp worry about smooth. You might like to try finishing on a good coticule. Known to leave edges more like a Derby than a Feather AFAIC.

The edge becomes more comfortable with the strop, FME. No matter where you start.

thank you everyone. this is all very helpful. i do believe that my edges are sharp. im just still a little new/green so testing everything i can. it wouldnt surprise me if im over honing but that too will get better with time and experience.

thanks again for the helpful advice.

So, first, do you have a real 12k?

If you do, you have all that is needed, to get both a smooth and keen edge off a 12k and stropping. Stropping cannot be overrated. It is the final polish and can easily make or literally break an edge. If you cannot strop, nothing else matters.

You can augment stropping, by stropping on paste, start with Chrome Oxide, but your stropping skills will limit your results. A 12k, Chrome Oxide pasted edge is a smoking, keen comfortable edge. So can an 8k edge be.

Look at your 12k edges and bevels, the straighter you can get your edges the smoother the shave. It really, is that simple and complicated.

I suspect most folks are no-where near to maxing out the performance from their 12K, or their 8K. The smaller the stria, the straighter the edge. Your edge does not begin to get real straight until after 8K, look at it.

Start by trying to get the bevel as stria free and the edge, as chip free as possible, magnification will help you here. This can be a rabbit hole or a learning experience, depending on how you approach it…

The rub is, you don’t have to go to all the trouble and expense, to get a good shave, it is all so subjective and skill dependent, and any improvement over an 8k edge is really, very small in terms of keenness, 2-5 percent improvement, comfort is another story.

Add naturals to the finish and it all goes out the window, and is stone and driver dependent.

Work systematically, try to maximize the performance from each of your stones, judge the bevel stria and edge straightness, and improve your stropping, using less pressure and a quality linen and leather strop.

As said stropping will improve an edge, even a bad edge, but it all works together, a good keen, comfortable edge is built, one step at a time. You cannot polish an edge that does not exist.

There are no magic stones, strops or paste… build it.

I find that there is a level of keen and buttery toast sorry I mean buttery smoothness that doesn't come along every honing session.
When you get there it's something special.

For me a super smooth edge will shave you but not butcher your face on a finer level .

I have had my 16K Shapton glass for about a month & a half now. I am really liking it. It gives a really keen edge when used properly. That means I use 8 to 12 strokes with almost no or no pressure on the razor. That is how it's supposed to be used. On a couple of my straights I have went about 12 strokes on my Coti under running water after the Shapton & it keeps the sharpness but smoothes out the blade. I do 25 laps on both of my shell strops & all I can say is wow!
I would advise getting a good 12 K stone & really learn it before going to a 16 K hone. Shapton Glass 16K is right at $150.00. For me it is worth it & I am trying to use it every day on different razors to learn how it works on different sizes , grinds & steel types & I am learning as much as I can about this hone. I am really liking it with a few rounds on my Coti afterwards.

Slawman

I used Shapton glass stones, 4,8 and 16k and had good success, but after sending a razor off for a full restore it came back with a Jnat edge....that really opened my eyes to how incredibly comfortable an edge could be. I purchased a Jnat finisher from a reputable vendor and Ive been enjoying sharp smooth shaves ever since. Someone once said, "Sharp is easy, sharp and smooth is hard," it comes down to spending time on your stones and really understanding the tactile feedback your razor is giving you. Stropping is also an important part of the equation, as others have stated.

Another option is sending off your razors to a true honemiester to get different edges put on them, coticule or Jnat. When they come back see which one your face prefers and take it from there.

Good luck!

i have quality strops and i believe that my stropping technique is okay. i always see an improvement after stropping, never a step backward. i do not use any pastes or sprays though. stones - natural or synthetic - only. am i missing out here?

does anyone use multiple strops in a type of progression? i.e. english bridle > kangaroo > cordovan ? or just stick with one per 'session'?

my 12k is a naniwa ss so i think thats okay too. i think ill experiment with a couple light laps on the coticle or zulu grey.

thanks again for all the helpful advice everyone.

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Originally Posted by sloanwinters

i have quality strops and i believe that my stropping technique is okay. i always see an improvement after stropping, never a step backward. i do not use any pastes or sprays though. stones - natural or synthetic - only. am i missing out here?

does anyone use multiple strops in a type of progression? i.e. english bridle > kangaroo > cordovan ? or just stick with one per 'session'?

my 12k is a naniwa ss so i think thats okay too. i think ill experiment with a couple light laps on the coticle or zulu grey.

I don't do strop progressions though I've known of guys that do. I have a few strops but just stick with one or another per session. With chrom-ox, about the only paste I use, and then only occasionally, I use it on wool felt, or leather, on a flatbed.

The naniwa 12k is a great hone. If you have honed a razor to shave ready, and it feels a bit harsh, a half dozen round trips on the chrom-ox, or on a coticule might be the ticket for a less 'crisp' feeling on the face. IME.

thanks again for all the helpful advice everyone.

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I don't do strop progressions though I've known of guys that do. I have a few strops but just stick with one or another per session. With chrom-ox, about the only paste I use, and then only occasionally, I use it on wool felt, or leather, on a flatbed.

The naniwa 12k is a great hone. If you have honed a razor to shave ready, and it feels a bit harsh, a half dozen round trips on the chrom-ox, or on a coticule might be the ticket for a less 'crisp' feeling on the face. IME.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Forget the 16k, the 12k is more than enough to get a sharp and smooth edge. Instead invest in time, the more time you spend on the hones the smoother your shaves will be.

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I have to disagree with you on the 16K hone. It takes my 8K edge just enough sharper & polished that I can tell a difference. The secret Of the Shapton & other quality hones is let the hones do the work. Don't push hard cause you won't like the edge & just wear down the hone. The main thing to me is to really learn the hones you have before changing anything. My next hone will be a good bevel setter. I am going between the Shapton or Chosera 1K hones. My King works but it is slower than I like. I have honed & stropped a few razors for people & I want a a bevel setter I like to use.

Slawman

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't do strop progressions though I've known of guys that do. I have a few strops but just stick with one or another per session. With chrom-ox, about the only paste I use, and then only occasionally, I use it on wool felt, or leather, on a flatbed.

The naniwa 12k is a great hone. If you have honed a razor to shave ready, and it feels a bit harsh, a half dozen round trips on the chrom-ox, or on a coticule might be the ticket for a less 'crisp' feeling on the face. IME.

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This is interesting. It's the traditional advice that pastes result in a more harsh edge?

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

This is interesting. It's the traditional advice that pastes result in a more harsh edge?

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Nope a myth started by a certain Hone Pusher

Keep in mind you will find what Jimmy said to be true right up until 2 things occurred almost at the same time

1. A certain natural hone was pushed as being the most comfortable edge ever to touch a face

2. Somebody said "If you are not certain about what paste you like, use a Balsa wood strop to test it out first" next thing we know there are actually people selling Balsa strops and people are using them as a pasted strop..
Paste on Balsa works almost too well and the Pasted strop changed from a method of Mellowing the edge to more of a Refresh method..

Not really a bad thing as it adds more versatility to simple paste but the Mellowing aspect has obviously been lost to many of you newer guys :(

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

This is interesting. It's the traditional advice that pastes result in a more harsh edge?

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IME chrome-ox, unlike diamond paste for example, can smooth out, soften a harsh edge. Sometimes a coticule, escher, or other natural finisher can also take a high grit synthetic finished edge and bring it down a notch or two, and in that case smooth the harshness out. Variables with all this stuff, but that is my personal experience. Keep in mind that the coticule, and other naturals are unlike a synthetic. Like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. Some are great, some not so great. IME. :)

It's the traditional advice that DIAMOND pastes, MAY result in a more harsh edge?

I have used both diamond sprays and Crox and my face doesn't care for either. Harsh or too crisp was my experience, they both sucked the comfort right out of my Jnat edge. This is wholly subjective a, YMMV thing. At the end of the day it comes down to what works for you, give both a try and see how you like them.

Good luck!

Like the other guys have said, the balance of keen vs. smooth is a very personal preference. For what it's worth, I finish with a hard Arkansas stone followed by lots of stropping on canvas and then leather. After that I maintain the edge as long as I can by only using those two stropping surfaces.

The goal of honing is to first get the bevels flat and meeting at an edge. At that point it is sharp enough to cut hair.

To get the bevels to meet, we use an abrasive, that cut steel with grit that leave stria. Low grit stria leave deep stria that can end at a serrated edge.

The shallower you can make the stria, the straighter the edge, the straighter the edge, the more comfortable the shave, because the edge is riding on your skin.

So, we use a progression of grit to speed up the process. Higher is not always better and at some point, the issue becomes, if the razor steel can hold the edge. You can go as high or low. as .0005um/ 3.2 million grit polycrystalline diamond compound, but for me .25um CBN is as fine as my skin will take and feel comfortable. And most razors steels can not handle an edge higher than .125um.

The beauty of a straight razor is you can tailor, the edge to your razor, beard, and skin type, and have a new edge every day, with minimal effort.

Past .50um you need to, go to paste. Chrome Oxide is .5um/30K and will calm most edges, high grit synthetic edges tend to be harsh because of the uniformness of the grit, random fine grit like coticules, fine slates, Jnats and hard Arks tend to have smoother cutting edges.

It all comes down to user abilities and personal preference.

“What do you do to get the edge more comfortable? id love to hear everyones process, try them all, and see what works best for me.”



I take an edge to 20k, after 1, 2, 4, 8 and 12k. I do strop after 8k and 12k and remove almost all stria, then hone on the SG20, or a Natural finish stone, Slate, Jnat, Coticule or Hard Ark.

Yes, it is over kill, but...

Depending on the finish stone, post SG20, I strop on leather, then .50um and .125um CBN. The razor is then shave ready and can be maintained at a very high level of keenness and comfort, with .50 and or .125 um CBN on a paper strop. This is how I hone customer razors unless, a specific finish stone is asked for.

For Jnat, Arks, Coticule and some Slates, I strop on linen and leather only for maintenance. As those are special edges and stropping on CBN would leave a CBN edge and not the stone edge, which are unique and the reason for using them, for me.

From a 12k super stone edge, which should be almost stria free, (make sure your 12k is free of loaded up swarf, for your final laps & that you are using light pressure), strop on razor quality Chrome Oxide (very important) on a canvas or nylon strop, leather works, (but not as well IMO), or .50um CBN.

I have been using a hard ark, an old Lilly White, to refresh stones, works great on Super Stones and SG20 and remove less stone material than a Diamond plate.

You can strop on leather, (20X) then Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN daily, (40-50X) with no ill effects to the edge, in fact, eventually, a week or two, all stria will be removed from the bevel and the edge will be super straight and very smooth. The edge can last indefinitely and can be easily refreshed on a high grit stone in just a few laps if needed.

The trick for most new Straight Razor users is stropping, as one errant stroke can wipe out all your work. If you are lucky a jointing and a few laps will bring it back.

Find a system that works for you, then perfect it, learn to max out each stone in your progression. If you change something, change only one thing at a time.

And lastly the absolute final, definitive test, is the shave test, that is how you judge progress. You will know when you hit the sweet spot.

Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by sloanwinters

I was thinking about adding a 16k to my progression after 12k. if not, what do others use or do to smooth out the edge a bit? do you go from 12k to a coticule for a few laps?

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I would like to clear up some of the small details, Glen and the other guys have done a fine job as usual.

First the 12K vs 16K comment. I do not know what manufactures 12K you have, but the most common one I can think of is the Naniwa 12K SS. The most common 16K hone I can think of is the Shapton 16K Glass hone.

Each manufacturer has their own classification and numbering system. Let's drop down to the 8K hone in both Naniwa SS and Shapton Glass.... the size of the grit in each of these hones are likely not the same size, so substituting one for the other will NOT give you the exact same effect. It gets worse when you find out that different product lines from the same manufacturer may not be identical to each other as far as the grit size is concerned. The main purpose of those 4K or 16K labels is to tell you which hone to use next in a progression (when it is from the same manufacturer and in the same product line), so you can tell them apart. In the Shapton Glass range, there is a prominent number on the bottom of every hone they make. Naniwa marks their hones quite faintly on the side of each hone, but instead make each hone in a different color, making it obvious (once you memorize the color/claimed grit size).

Going back to the 12K Naniwa SS vs 16K Shapton Glass question, I have both and I cannot really tell any difference between them, other than the feel while honing. Naniwa SS hones feel softer than Shapton Glass hones and sometimes I prefer one over the other, but I wouldn't use the 16K after the 12K.

On the other hand, Naturals are not *better* but they ARE different, and I might follow either of those synthetic stones with one of my several naturals. Which natural I select will vary on a whim.... no real reason other than I want to use this hone or that today. Some gents find one of their natural hones seems to work better on a particular razor.... I can't really say I find that to happen myself, but I do find the natural hones, while often much slower cutting than synthetics, seem to offer a more pleasing edge to shave with.

So... assuming you have a 12K Naniwa SS, and you wish to venture out to try something different, I'd suggest you try a natural hone of some sort. It won't be cheap, but stones like the Coticule, Zulu Grey, Japanese Naturals from a trusted seller etc. would all be a good next choice. Beware though.... just because you purchase X stone, does not mean it WILL work for sure..... they are made by nature..... each stone is an individual, and all have their personalities and some just don't work no matter what you do. The safest in my mind is probably a Japanese Natural, but only if purchased from a trusted seller who offers to take the hone back if it does not work out for you. These gents will often have tested the stone before sale and can guide you along after purchase.... and they stand behind their stones if it happens you get one you just don't like. But do not forget, this kind of service also comes at a price... it is a fair price, but it IS a price..... These will not be your Ebay bargains.

Beware of ANY natural stone where a grit rating is offered.... there simply is no such thing.... they were created by random chance and nobody knows what is in them... we only know roughly what we can see on the surface that is exposed. We may know the primary ingredient that is harder than steel and thus does the honing, but particle size and binder hardness is all random. Even two natural hones cut side by side out of the ground may be wildly different or on the other hand, they might be near identical. That is the lure for many of us honers.... the search for that elusive hone. Even funnier..... someone buys a hone, spends untold hours trying to figure the hone out, gives up and sells it, only for the next owner to exclaim it's the greatest hone ever..... because they figured it out.

I've had a love/hate relationship with my big Coticule..... it just did not seem to create the edge I was looking for. 10 years later, a local chap whom I got going in the straight razor madness, picked up an old stone at an antique shop for $10 or something like that and when it was cleaned up, it was clearly a Coticule hone. He used that hone in ways I never did, and offered a honed blade to me for my "opinion" on his edges. My jaw hit the floor... it was the nicest edge I'd ever shaved with! After hearing how he was honing the edge, I gave the same treatment to one my my razors on my disgusting, I should really sell it, Coticule. Today, the stone is NOT FOR SALE! So.... be prepared for a learning curve, and don't be afraid of a hone someone has given up on.... it *could* be a great hone in YOUR hands.... But, if you see a hone offered for $10 and it's claimed to be 12K or 16K or 20K, and it's a natural stone and it's listed as brand new..... you should be seeing warning flags. It might still be a good hone... but I'd look at them carefully before pulling out my wallet. I know there are Chinese 12K stones being offered, and opinions on them vary.... I have never tried one, so I cannot offer an opinion either way, but the consensus seems to be that they may be worth the price they are offered for, but they are not a $1000 Jnat being sold for $50. ;)

GSsixguns tagline says it all:

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"
Very Respectfully - Glen


Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Why can't I ever write a *SHORT* reply" Zero


[Edit]. My Coticule (8" x 3") seems to sharpen an edge quickly, but if I want the uber smooth edge my friend Danny showed me how to get, it will take about 200 super light laps after my 12K on absolutely pure clean water. "A few laps" won't do anything on pretty much any finishing hone.

euclid and kaptain - thank you both for taking the time to offer up your knowledge and experience. much appreciated.

yes i have the naniwa 12k. i also have a coticule and zulu grey as well. but have been hesitant to switch from synthetic to natural in my progression.

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Originally Posted by BadB

I have used both diamond sprays and Crox and my face doesn't care for either. Harsh or too crisp was my experience, they both sucked the comfort right out of my Jnat edge. This is wholly subjective a, YMMV thing. At the end of the day it comes down to what works for you, give both a try and see how you like them.

Good luck!

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You may simply have taken an optimal edge past it's breaking point.

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I've had a love/hate relationship with my big Coticule..... it just did not seem to create the edge I was looking for. 10 years later, a local chap whom I got going in the straight razor madness, picked up an old stone at an antique shop for $10 or something like that and when it was cleaned up, it was clearly a Coticule hone. He used that hone in ways I never did, and offered a honed blade to me for my "opinion" on his edges. My jaw hit the floor... it was the nicest edge I'd ever shaved with! After hearing how he was honing the edge, I gave the same treatment to one my my razors on my disgusting, I should really sell it, Coticule. Today, the stone is NOT FOR SALE!

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I know what you mean kaptain. I hope they toss my coticule and a handful of razors in my casket for heavenly shaves in the hereafter. :angel:

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Originally Posted by sloanwinters

euclid and kaptain - thank you both for taking the time to offer up your knowledge and experience. much appreciated.

yes i have the naniwa 12k. i also have a coticule and zulu grey as well. but have been hesitant to switch from synthetic to natural in my progression.

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All I can say is give it a try, assuming you have at least 2 razors! I do all my work on ugly junkers.... razors that will NEVER be good looking, but have plenty of life left, no issues other than unsightly pits and tarnish. Hone up what you consider a great edge on the 12K, then move on to either the Coti or the Zulu, don't be afraid to spend some time doing ultralight laps.... Most of my naturals seem to take at least 100 laps to be noticeable, but then even the fast synthetics seem slower for me than for other gents, so perhaps I'm just very light handed when I hone?

I will say though.... I seem to be having some good luck using a hard knit wool material stretched over a piece of wood and treated with some ChromeOx paste. After I'm convinced I've gone far enough with a natural, I will do 5 to 7 laps on the wool/CrOx to hopefully remove any faint wire edges that *may* have developed, and then go back to the hone for another 10 super light laps. Dry and strop... I generally only use my finest leather strop after a hone job.... after the shave, I do 10 very light laps on a linen strop and place the razor on one of the floor vents as we have forced air heating, but the fan runs 24/7 all the time so it filters the air.... it makes a very convenient place to dry a razor. I just have to remember to keep the door to the room closed so the cat doesn't bat it around!

When it's time to shave again, I give the razor 30 to 50 laps on leather.

The use of Crox on wool stems from my reading a translated book written by Kousuke Iwasaki.

I'll quote a few relevant paragraphs, and as I'm over 50, apparently I have withered arms?!?!? :

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4. Removing the False Edge
In order to remove the very fine false edge create by the Honyama hone, you need a hone with
particles finer than those of the Honyama. Many people believe this false edge can be removed with
a leather or linen strop, but in reality, if you look closely it doesn’t work that way. In this situation, I
bring out a man-made abrasive made for use in mirror-polishing, called “Green Powder”
(Chromium Oxide). Mix this with water and spread it onto the previously-prepared Raxa hone. Thevolume should be very small, just enough to turn the cloth slightly green is plenty. There are
undoubtedly people who tend to over apply, but it’s best not to use very much.
Green Powder is far and away finer than Honyama grit particles, so it is well suited to removing the
false edge created by the Honyama. On the above described Raxa hone, hone your razor or
Kamisori spine-leading in a V pattern. Apply light pressure along the edge, and do 3 laps (6 strokes
total); there are some inexperienced people who, because they apply pressure to the spine, fail to
remove the false edge and so they will need to repeat this another 6 times or so. However, if the
false edge is very, very fine, one or two passes might be sufficient.
The time needed should only be about 10 seconds or so. If you check this edge under a microscope,
you will see a beautiful straight line along your edge, which is enough to impress anyone.
After this, it’s often possible to use the razor without even stropping. There should be absolutely no
irritation or pain from it. However, somehow the edge might feel slightly “heavy”. For
inexperienced women hairdressers or older people in their fifties with withered arms, I recommend
being satisfied with this.

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And for wool substrate, I substituted some nice 100% hard knit wool (the kind used for dress pants) from my local tailor, but here again Iwasaki explains what a Raxa hone is:

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Raxa Hones (Pasted strop) [“Raxa” is from Portuguese, meaning “wool cloth”. Apparently, the
pronunciation in Japan is “Rasha.”--JDR]
Make a Raxa hone by sticking a scrap of wool cloth onto a small wooden board with tacks. [In the
original, he recommended a Kamaboko Board, a small wooden platter used in cooking and serving
a steamed fish paste, it's about 15x5 cm.--JDR]. Onto this, spread a mixture of water and the
abrasive called "Green Powder" (Chromium Oxide). Use this to remove the extremely fine "false
edge" left by the honyama hone. I've tried using wood or the back of a leather strop with this
powder, but with each one I found that it caused some chipping on the blade, so it's best not to use
either.

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Once you start chasing the *perfect* edge, it becomes a fascinating but at times tedious journey. The ugly truth is that you cannot *buy* your way to the perfect edge, you can only practice your skills until you achieve it. As they used to say in stock car racing; "Run whatcha brung, you'll never win a race with that car you can only dream of owning". You already have all the hones you need to achieve an excellent edge, you just need practice.

If you know how to produce a "decent" edge, you'll always have fine shaves with your other razor(s) while you search for that better edge. It never hurts to bring your regular razor along when you go to test your freshly honed super edge.... (sometimes, you may have to go back to ol' reliable, and if you brought it along.... it's easy). And once you are spoiled by the ultimate edge... you'll be honing before every shave, trying to re-create that last perfect shave (or worse, trying to improve on it). It never ends.......<sigh>


Regards

Christian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

All I can say is give it a try, assuming you have at least 2 razors! I do all my work on ugly junkers.... razors that will NEVER be good looking, but have plenty of life left, no issues other than unsightly pits and tarnish. Hone up what you consider a great edge on the 12K, then move on to either the Coti or the Zulu, don't be afraid to spend some time doing ultralight laps.... Most of my naturals seem to take at least 100 laps to be noticeable, but then even the fast synthetics seem slower for me than for other gents, so perhaps I'm just very light handed when I hone?

I will say though.... I seem to be having some good luck using a hard knit wool material stretched over a piece of wood and treated with some ChromeOx paste. After I'm convinced I've gone far enough with a natural, I will do 5 to 7 laps on the wool/CrOx to hopefully remove any faint wire edges that *may* have developed, and then go back to the hone for another 10 super light laps. Dry and strop... I generally only use my finest leather strop after a hone job.... after the shave, I do 10 very light laps on a linen strop and place the razor on one of the floor vents as we have forced air heating, but the fan runs 24/7 all the time so it filters the air.... it makes a very convenient place to dry a razor. I just have to remember to keep the door to the room closed so the cat doesn't bat it around!

When it's time to shave again, I give the razor 30 to 50 laps on leather.

The use of Crox on wool stems from my reading a translated book written by Kousuke Iwasaki.

I'll quote a few relevant paragraphs, and as I'm over 50, apparently I have withered arms?!?!? :



And for wool substrate, I substituted some nice 100% hard knit wool (the kind used for dress pants) from my local tailor, but here again Iwasaki explains what a Raxa hone is:




Once you start chasing the *perfect* edge, it becomes a fascinating but at times tedious journey. The ugly truth is that you cannot *buy* your way to the perfect edge, you can only practice your skills until you achieve it. As they used to say in stock car racing; "Run whatcha brung, you'll never win a race with that car you can only dream of owning". You already have all the hones you need to achieve an excellent edge, you just need practice.

If you know how to produce a "decent" edge, you'll always have fine shaves with your other razor(s) while you search for that better edge. It never hurts to bring your regular razor along when you go to test your freshly honed super edge.... (sometimes, you may have to go back to ol' reliable, and if you brought it along.... it's easy). And once you are spoiled by the ultimate edge... you'll be honing before every shave, trying to re-create that last perfect shave (or worse, trying to improve on it). It never ends.......<sigh>


Regards

Christian

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You may have withered arms but at least you aren't an inexperienced woman hairdresser. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

You may have withered arms but at least you aren't an inexperienced woman hairdresser. :)

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True, so true. :rofl2:

So far I've found that my SB Arkansas can often bring smoothness and keenness into near perfect harmony as long as the bevel is well handled prior to finishing work. It seems to provide the best balance for me at least.

My 2cents: The bevel must be set, each stone must smooth out the striations of the previous stone, your stropping must be on point.