taped spine or not

I curious to know if any of our experienced honers can tell me if there is a way to tell looking at an edge if it has been honed using tape or not. Don't say why not ask the person you are buying it from. All to often when buying on line the seller has no idea what your talking about if you asked. I thought that maybe the bevel would be narrower because the angle is more pronounced then without it. I can tell after I start to hone it looking at the edge but it would help to know before I start honing.

Sharpie the bevel then make one light pass across a stone. If it has been honed with tape you'll see that the hone isn't hitting the apex of the bevel(s).

Just by looking at it, I don't think so.

Cheers, Steve

Short answer; really difficult/no in most cases.

If the razor is new, with an untouched rounded spine and the edge is beautifully sharp, then tape was used. Or if there is a difference between the polishing degree of the spine and the edge, although not a reliable method.
The "hollower" the grind of the razor, the harder it is to see if tape was used; on a wedge razor you can see it if you try. There are also the secondary bevels, where you see an angle forming on the edge, and a millimeter or less behind it, although it disappears soon. That's also a sign that tape was used.
I use tape almost always, the razor keeps its mint-like appearance and lasts longer since less steel is removed (not that it won't outlive if you are a bit careful with it). I also think that, a lot of new users have a problem with rehoning (or stropping a razor on a paddle strop, that's kind of serious) a razor, honed by the previous owner using tape, so for my case I always mention it, either on my ad or on mails and ask if he wants me to return it back to how it was without tape.
As for the "the angle has a meaning", that's a lie; I've shaved with a close to 90 degree edge. You can do some crazy stuff with a 90 degree edge, just don't let your guard down.

Good info above. I have noticed that some razors come brand new from the factory with some scratches on the honing flat on the spine. So it is hard to tell unless the razor has been honed to the point where it is obvious through an eye loupe.

I don't particularly worry about it. The razor either looks in good enough condition or it doesn't, in which case I won't buy it. One way or the other, when I hone it I will use tape, and if necessary reset the bevel. Wish they could talk, what tales they could tell. :)

If it is time for a touch up it is not going to make much difference at all how it was honed. If it was honed without tape and you touch it up with tape, you will create a minuscule secondary or micro bevel. Some guys do that on purpose as part of their honing routine. If it was honed with tape and you tape it, it will be right there, the third possibility is it was honed with tape and you hone without you will erase all of that tiny little bit of shoulder and get down to the edge in no time, and that is the only effect you will get. I do sense though that you may be new to honing, in which case you really should be taping the spine. People that are new to honing tend to be heavier on the spine than those who have honed for a while.

Talking about tapes, I would like to confirm something; isn't it reasonable to assume that all tapes we use for honing don't have the same thickness? Let alone finishing with more than one layer, something that would be an overkill for pretty much any razor. So... using a tape for touch-up a razor, we aren't sure if the tape we will be using has the same thickness with the one used by the previous owner/person that honed it.
In that case, again, we either check for sharpie color, or reflection of the edge.

Sharpie test on a finishing stone without tape. If you hit the edge it was not honed with tape. If you don't hit the edge, ad a layer of tape and try again. It's that simple. Looking at the side of the spine is not a very reliable method.

electrical tape is in two common thicknesses of 0.007" and 0.0085", there is a less common electrical tape that is 0.010". If you are not buying tape that is labeled as electrical tape it could be as thin as 0.005". It is pretty small increments and that much steel comes off on a hone pretty quickly. So when you create a micro bevel it really is a tiny change in the thickness of the spine.

Stretching of the tape can be an issue. I had a blade honed with 2layers as described, but that was between 2 and 3 layers for how I tape. Your best bet is to do one layer or not, with sharpie, and check with a loupe. Then go from there.

I always buy 3M Scotch Super 33 +. Comes in a plastic container for storing, keeps dust and grit off of it. I keep a single edge Gem blade in the container to cut the tape the length I need. Can't beat it. Always 7ml thickness, and it is high quality stuff.

Attachment 251269

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Sharpie the bevel then make one light pass across a stone. If it has been honed with tape you'll see that the hone isn't hitting the apex of the bevel(s).

Just by looking at it, I don't think so.

Cheers, Steve

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+1 - you can mark the bevel with a black Edding to see it better. Just one slight stroke on a finisher is enough to see if the razor was honed with or without tape.
The angel of a bevel is esential! - not necessarily for the sharpness or smoothness though, but like on every knife it determines the lifetime of the edge together with steel quality and tempering. This is of less importance for us nowadays since we have time and (most of us) can hone their razors. But it was a very important property in the older days for the barbers. Beside this, thickness and strongness of your beard hear has an influence of the perfect bevel-angel for you personally.

I just put the razor on the hone and look at the edge area, if there is no gap then the razor was honed with no tape and if there is then I repeat with one layer of tape , etc.

If you're going to reset the bevel, it shouldn't matter how it was previously honed. You're just going to establish a bevel angle based on whether or not you use tape. This should happen regardless of what was previously done to the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I also think that, a lot of new users have a problem with rehoning (or stropping a razor on a paddle strop, that's kind of serious) a razor, honed by the previous owner using tape

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I just started using a paddle strop... So I'll have to take my blades now every time before I shave?

No, not really.

The difference is so slight, if the bevel is flat, a new bevel can be cut in just a few laps, depending on the bevel and the stone.

I hone everything with tape, unless specifically asked not to. Which has only been asked a hand full of times in years.

If you hone the same way, all the time with or without tape, it’s not an issue. I reset the bevels on all razors I get in.

Here's a nice video on the subject: :tu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchDtXzUO4

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Originally Posted by strangedata

I just started using a paddle strop... So I'll have to take my blades now every time before I shave?

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No.

A leather or linen strop will flex enough to strop the whole bevel.

As an example, a razor honed on a glass plate with a piece of film, over a wet piece of copy paper, (a common finishing technique) will flex enough to hone the leading 1/3 edge of a bevel, (from the edge back).

So, a piece of leather or linen will flex much more. You can strop with or without tape, does not matter.

I often strop a taped razor, for just a few laps when honing, because I am too lazy to remove it, but there is no need to tape a razor to strop it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strangedata

I just started using a paddle strop... So I'll have to take my blades now every time before I shave?

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If your razor was honed with tape, then you'll have to tape it. In fact that's a reason paddle strops are not as popular as the... classic ones. The leather/linen/wood or whatever is below the edge is not springy enough to touch the edge unless you are using enough pressure where the bevel without tape would be "buried" into the leather/linen and the taped edge comes in contact with it and it's not a good idea. There is also the chance that you'll be able to see a line of dead skin cells on the edge, while right behind it the edge will be clean, so, that's a sign.
The easiest way to find out is to shave a few times, stropping your edge without tape on the paddle strop and see how it feels. On the other hand, if you do use tape, you can be absolutely sure that the edge will be touching the leather. So, give it a try. For me and anyone I've talked about it, it does indeed need that (these if more than one) layer of tape. For you, try it and let us know after a few shaves. And, yes, I do love paddle strops.

And now, between Euclid440 and Vasilis I've got conflicting info [emoji57] [emoji38] [emoji15]

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Originally Posted by strangedata

And now, between Euclid440 and Vasilis I've got conflicting info [emoji57] [emoji38] [emoji15]

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I agree with Euclid440. I've never heard of anyone taping a spine to strop. I don't see how it could be an issue with one or two layers of tape.

So, as he says, try it…

Get a piece of cardboard, inside of cereal box ink the bevel, by running the side of a sharpie along the edge, this will ink the edge and a bit of both sides of the bevel.

Not strop on the edge of a table or counter, just plain cardboard. Is the ink removed at the edge?

You can try the same thing with your strop but you will get some ink on your strop.

Lots of folks write stuff on these forums, but it is easy enough to try these thing yourself and see the results for yourself, like the video of Glen honing off the effects of a taped bevel. My experience is that it takes even fewer laps than Glen used. And I was using a 12k stone.

It's not a really serious matter.
What I'm saying is, if you use tape, you can be 100% sure that the edge will come in contact with the leather, if you know the basics on stropping.
If you won't use tape, then you can't be 100%. How long does it take to tape the spine, or how expensive is that piece of tape?
The cardboard is not a good example, it has tiny fibers "standing" above the surface, so, even if it won't come in contact with the cardboard, these tiny fibers will clean the sharpie.
Of course, the leather used on the paddle strop is an important factor; if you have a piece of 9mm suede leather glued on the paddle for stropping (in which case I say kudos) even 8 layers of tape won't matter, rather, it won't be stropping because the razor will be sinking into the leather. But if you have a fine, polished strop, and the leather or whatever you have on the surface isn't extraordinarily thick, chances are, the edge won't make a contact.
Pressure is also a factor, if you use too much of it, forget about the cardboard, use the table or counter directly to erase the sharpie marks.
I've had a nice conversation with Kees, about a year ago I think, where he was telling me that he didn't like paddle strops because his razors with tape did not come in contact with the leather (or that he didn't like taping because some strops like paddle strops did not come in contact with the leather, the other case is the most likely, he is around and will confirm it if he would like to join)

So, I tape before stropping on paddle strops so, here is someone saying it even if I'm the first to do so, and, the difference in our opinions is, if you tape you can be 100% sure that the leather will come in contact with the edge. If not, there is no guarantee, just speculation.

Not a big fan of tape. When was this practice started?? I sure don't know but I asked a retired barber if they ever taped the spine of a razor to hone it & he just shook his head & looked at me funny. I will go with the man who used a razor to make a good part of his living. He touched up with a 3 line Swaty & had a Shell horsehide strop. Used a Coti to hone with & that was it. He had about 6 to 8 razors in his rotation. To bad he is gone now. Started as a Barber in the army.

Slawman, it's interesting you mentioned your barber. I asked my old time barber and he laughed when I asked about tape. He said a razor is a tool you use to shave. If you have vintage razors you can be sure they were honed without tape. I have some very expensive Livi razors that are amazing and he asked me if I used tape and I said no. If Mastro Livi doesn't use it on his razors neither am I. He asked if I didn't buy the vintage razors because whoever had them before didn't use tape and I said no. He then said if you know what your doing when you hone a razor you'll be fine. If you use to much pressure, the wrong technique or to many laps you will screw up the razor with or without tape. He watched Mastro Livi hone his razors and said he hones like a professional barber. No fancy stones and not a lot of laps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slawman

Not a big fan of tape. When was this practice started?? I sure don't know but I asked a retired barber if they ever taped the spine of a razor to hone it & he just shook his head & looked at me funny. I will go with the man who used a razor to make a good part of his living. He touched up with a 3 line Swaty & had a Shell horsehide strop. Used a Coti to hone with & that was it. He had about 6 to 8 razors in his rotation. To bad he is gone now. Started as a Barber in the army.

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I see your point. But again, in the past barbers didn't (usually) have a bevel setter and a stone in between that bevel setter and the finisher. Slurry was used indeed, but it would take a long time with a coticule and possibly days of honing with a Thuringian to fix a nick from the razor that touched the sink or the bottle of glass that was used for "sterilization" or the metallic parts of a strop, or you dropped it, any of them by accident of course (for someone working as a barber for decades, it should have happened a lot of times and for many razors).
Like the 1k, we have the tape. Shaving started some thousands of years ago, with completely different tools, and every now and then something about the tool or honing/stropping was changing. And it still does since razors still exist, it's a tiny addition in that evolution. You can use it, but it's not in the list of things "you absolutely need to hone/restore any razor".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slawman

Not a big fan of tape. When was this practice started?? I sure don't know but I asked a retired barber if they ever taped the spine of a razor to hone it & he just shook his head & looked at me funny. I will go with the man who used a razor to make a good part of his living. He touched up with a 3 line Swaty & had a Shell horsehide strop. Used a Coti to hone with & that was it. He had about 6 to 8 razors in his rotation. To bad he is gone now. Started as a Barber in the army.

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It wouldn't make sense for a barber to use tape. Their razors see a lot of use and need to be touched up often(sometimes in between customers). Many of the guys on this forum have several razors that don't need touch ups very often. Some of my razors have gone three or four years without a touch up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slawman

Not a big fan of tape. When was this practice started?? I sure don't know but I asked a retired barber if they ever taped the spine of a razor to hone it & he just shook his head & looked at me funny. I will go with the man who used a razor to make a good part of his living. He touched up with a 3 line Swaty & had a Shell horsehide strop. Used a Coti to hone with & that was it. He had about 6 to 8 razors in his rotation. To bad he is gone now. Started as a Barber in the army.

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Tape is simply a new 'Tool' one that either wasn't in existence or hadn't have been thought of to be of any use back not so many years ago. While your barber pulled out a Coti, he had a Swaty (which wasn't available not so many years ago when he got one) so he took advantage of a new 'Tool' just as many have found that Tape is a tool.

As most have found 99.9% of Everything to do with Purchasing/Using and Maintaining a straight razor is PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

Personally I do use tape when honing unless requested not to. I have played with Glen's method of setting the bevel with tape and then progressing onward without tape and it works. I guess it's kind of a Hybrid (Old School) (New School) thing.

Well guys, have some fun today and enjoy those straight razor shaves! :tu

I use tape on razors that are tough to get a good bevel on, just recently I had to use 2 layers on a Bengall, then took it down to one, I got a nice bevel and it is shave ready, it was tough to find some good leg hair to test but it past the test,(At least for me).

My problem with tape is that it changes the geometry of the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slawman

My problem with tape is that it changes the geometry of the blade.

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Way less than, bad honing does

That whole geometry change is pretty much a strawman argument, it is true, but simply irrelevant in our life times


Here

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html

Taping started with the razor resurgence and guys began to restore, old razors. After spending days, hand sanding, what is the point of grinding off all your hard work, if you don’t have to?

And guys found, adding tape could easily, correct a badly worn spine and make a useless razor shaveable. Old barbers, probably never “re-set” a bevel and just touched up their razors, if needed. They were tools, that eventually wore out, just like scissors and were replaced.

No question that many a new guy, has needlessly ground a spine, doing too many laps, on low grit stones, with far too much pressure.

Tape can easily, prevent that, until they learn to hone. And then can decide if they want to continue to use tape.

The use of tape, has never rendered a razor useless, but the cure for a razor that will not hold an edge because geometry is distorted, because of excessive spine wear… is, tape.

Never understood, the drama, if YOU, don’t want to tape… ok…

I honed a new, very hard TI today, that was chippy through the whole progression. The fix, was (2) layers of tape, shaved great.

Just another tool for the tool box. If I've picked up an old whipped razor that already has spine wear, there's nothing to protect and I hone it naked to see if it takes an edge. If it does, great. I can save 30 seconds of time and .001 cents worth of tape when I hone it.

If the spine looks to be in good shape and I don't want to change that, I spend the time & money on tape. Right now, that means my Wade & Butcher gets taped and all my other old whipped razors don't. Favoritism? Maybe. But they all shave and that's all that matters at the end of the day.