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I am new to honing and to learn I have bought two chinese hones from around 15$.
One 1k/4k and one 8k stone. Is it possible to get a decent edge from these stones, or isn't it worth to keep trying.
I can get an edge that shaves after a lot of stropping with red compound, but I do get a lot of irritaion...
There's a lot that could be going wrong here. We'd need to know what brand of hone you bought to start with. It could be a problem with the hones, it could be that your honing technique needs work, it could be that you're stropping on a compound. The compound itself might not be good for straights, or if you lift/roll the razor you can wreck an edge with a quickness. And even faster on a buffing compound. Most folks use Chromium Oxide or a diamond paste, not a red paste.
You also mention ' a lot of stropping' on the red compound. Most folks who use a paste are doing 10 or fewer strokes. Too much work on a good paste will make an edge uncomfortable and quick, even if your technique is right.
My first suggestion - drop the paste from the progression. A good 8K stone should give you an edge you can shave comfortably with using nothing but linen and leather. I can't stress that enough. Once you've achieved that then you can start working with the paste. But until you can get a shaving edge off an 8K stone there's no point in going further.
As to the hones themselves...there's a reason we recommend Norton/Naniwa/Shapton hones. Cheaper ones are going to have less QC, and are more likely to have errant large grit particulate or poor binder quality . This may be acceptable for knives, but the tolerances for a straight razor are much tighter if you want a comfortable shave.
I haven't been able to get a good read on cheap Chinese hones. I've had solid luck with their natural hones, but I haven't taken a gamble on their synthetics and I suspect I'm not the only one.
Grit ratings are not consistent among synthetic stone vendors and grit ratings assigned to natural stones are just a guess. While it is possible to get a decent edge off some of the better 8K stones, I do not know if your Chinese 8K is capable of doing so. If you paid only $15 for the stones, either they are quite small (making it harder to get a consistent edge heal to toe), or they are inconsistent in quality, perhaps both.
Since you are new to honing, remember that some of the problem could be your honing technique. Watch several of the honing videos by the honemeisters and experiment until you find what works for you. Pickup a few inexpensive razors, either vintage blades or something like a Gold Dollar 208 and practice honing until you can shave with them. It is best not to practice on an expensive razor.
I know that hones can be expensive, but do your research on the forums and then purchase the "best" stones you can afford, whether they are synthetic or natural.
Post pics of your razor and the stones. Find a local mentor, honing and stropping is not as easy as videos make it seem.
These are the stones:
1k/4k: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Sharp...608.0.0.y4FkFn
8k: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/EWS-T...683369313.html
they are both 18cm*6cm.
I'm going to continue practicing till I can shave right after the 8k, canvas and leather strop. I have bought 5 SR's for 50€ so I have enough to practice on.
I think the pressure I use for the moment is the biggest thing I'm not doing right at the moment. Also I have the feeling the edge is sharper after the 4k then te 8k..
Have not tried those particular stones, but stones similar to those are genarallly too soft for razors.
There is a lot that goes into the making of a quality of a stone not just the grit size.
Post photos of your razors.
And Yes, pressure especially with a soft stone is an issue.
Ok, so you have some nice razors in good condition. Do take the time to learn to hone them properly. Find a local mentor.
If not, go slow and at least use a layer of electrical tape on the spine to protect it. Do you have some good magnification, 40 -60 X.
Look at the edges, if they are not chipped start on the 4k stone, after lapping all the stones. Read the first 3 post in the honing forum.
Ok, thank you very much. I have bought a cheap 60x LED microscope (yeah, chinese as well), but I didn't see much of a difference when going from one stone to another.
I will keep practicing with the razor from the first picture.
I have shearched for a mentor but not found yet..
Are you using tape?
Where are you located? If you add your location to your profile, then if any meet-ups happen near you there will be a greatly likelihood that you will be notified of it. If you are concerned about privacy, then you can just list a state, province, or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanalien
If you don't want to list your location, do you know how to do a location search of the members list?
That razor in the first photo looks like a good one to use for practicing honing. Just make sure that you use tape and change it long before it wears all the way through to the steel. As the tape wears down the angle of the bevel changes and the edge no longer makes contact with the hone.
18cm x 6cm is an adequate size. For a beginner, one of the biggest challenges is keeping the blade flat on the hone along the length of the blade. Narrower hones make that a lot more difficult for beginners but your 6cm width is good enough.
In July i bought a set of TAIDEAs from 1K to 8K for 3,99 € each stone, just for the giggles. Plus a TAIDEA diamond plate 320/600 for 3,99 €. I tested them once and for that price it is a good deal. My Naniwa combination stones are easier to maintain, much better at each grit level and it is easy to achive fairly good results as a beginner. On the other hand, if you succeed and truly get a decent shaving razor from your stones you will most likely have the necessary skills to have a set of Naniwas and just blow your mind with the improvement.
I would not recomment to buy these chinese stones for the high price on AliExpress, once or twice a year you can get sellout prices on Ebay. Or you try and search AliExpress for "just 1 piece" bargains.
I'm guessing that you should be able to get your razors shaving with those hones. You're just rubbing off a little metal after all. :)
Work on your technique and you should be good to go. If you aren't too rough in your technique you don't "need" tape. I've never used any.
I agree that you might as well leave off the paste until you are getting a shaveable edge just to make things simple.
If you are just learning to shave with a straight that's another complication so make sure lack of sharpness isn't just your shaving technique as well. More than likely though you just aren't staying on the 1K long enough to completely set the bevel. That last comment is the answer to almost every honing problem. :)
While you're learning, try using a sharpie or some other felt tipped marker to color the bevel before putting it on the stones to see where you're actually making contact. It might surprise you :)
Yes, but I'll have to buy another sort of tape, my hones have the color of the tape after about 5minutes..Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
HmmmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Humanalien
Depending on the tape ????
That also could also mean you are applying the pressure to the Spine rather then "Torquing" toward the edge..
Take a close look at the wear on the tape,,,
This is one of the main reason you saw several of the experienced guys recommending using tape to learn with
Tape is cheap and easy to replace, steel costs :p
ps: start with only one of those razors, I would suggest the pretty Solingen,or the Hamburg Ring from the pics and from experience those look to be the easiest to hone that you have there...
Ok, i have tried them all already :P They are now shaving, but far from decent...
The Solingen Halfman I like a lot and is the best at this time, I had a very good shave on the way down, but a rather "irritating" shave on the way up.
I'm going to put them all away again accept the Hamburg-ring and going to start over.
So if my tape is grinding of I'm propably using to much pressure instead of "torqueing" the razor?
The shaving technique shouldn't be a problem since i'm shaving with my new Dovo for almost 5yrs now. But now I want to try restore other razors to then shave with.Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
Just out of interest..
I'm going to restart all over now and be a little more patient on the 1k ik think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanalien
Good idea
I want to say "Yes" but I do not know the hones nor the tape you are using, so I have to guess
You have to take a close look to know
In general when people are learning to hone they tend to have "Heavy hands" they also don't hold the tangs correctly while honing to "Torque" the razor toward the edge while honing, this leads to all the pressure being applied to the spine,,, and the edge not being evenly and equally pushed across the hone..
Watching the water, will solve all these issues, that ripple of water as you hone should move evenly and equally from the heel to the toe as you push in an X down the hone..
If you lose that little wave of water under the hone, you are no longer honing the edge (bad) by just applying enough torque and pressure to "Ride the Wave" you eliminate all guess work about honing..
The pressure and torque have to adjust to each razor to accomplish that, doing it evenly and equally on both sides of the bevel will result in a shaving edge..
As the edge gets sharper that wave automatically adjusts for lighter pressure because it will start "Undercutting" the water, just keep relaxing the pressure and torque until the wave slips under the edge then you know you went to far...
Honing really is that simple, the difficulty comes from learning the "Gymnastics" required to do the same with problem razors :)
Look at the tape, if it is wearing out, then you are probably using too much pressure on the spine, watch the ripple of water and adjust
I have just flattened the stones and tomorrow I'm going to start over knowing all this, the spine torque thing was a fault I was making, no doubt there.
Wish me luck! Thanks for al the advice ! !
I'm now going to sleep ( 23pm here in Belgium and alarm @ 5am ;-))
I tested the cheap chinese hones after an estimated fifty razors honing experience and i got the same result as you. It shaved acceptable with the grain and not so against the grain. This didn't improve with my second pass with these stones. On the other hand, the result could be fixed with some 200 stokes on my good translucent arkansas. It's hard to tell, how much of the result is due to the hone, most likely you will get an acceptable shave with some experience and further refinement on a CrOx strop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanalien
When i started honing, i finished on a cheap chinese 10K stone using water. I shaved with it, but i didn't like it very much. Refining it on a welch "15K" slate the result was good or very good, depending on the razor. I revisited this chinese 10K stone twice, using it with lather and then oil. The result was better, but i'm still clueless, whether it is meant to be an oilstone or a waterstone. My best bet is that you can choose how to use it depending on your needs :confused: . And since all these chinese stones are very much the same traditional bonded stones produced by very few factorys and sold under a lot of different OEM names the same should be true for all of these TAIDEA and other chinese hones. What i didn't see so far on the chinese market are cheap copies of resin bonded stones. Or cheap knock-off products to high priced japanese magnesia-bonded stones. It's safe to assume that the manufacturing costs for such higher quality hones are too high for the chinese producers at the moment.
I remember viewing a YouTube video by Caleb McCullough where he told the story of calling someone in china from TAIDEA who recommended to use oil for razor honing with these stones. :shrug:
Maybe i revisit the TAIDEA stones just for fun and to present a more detailed impression of these stones. I'm now at an estimated experience of eighty razors, i still consider myself a beginner. On the other hand i honed all razors except of three to shave good or very good. And the three bad razors are more like "razor shaped objects", warped and bend to hell and back. :banghead:
This is for future purchases :D
Knivesandtools.be - keukenmessen messen zaklampen en verrekijkers
The site has regular offers and sells naniwa stones at some of the best European prices. Currently they have the 12K for €55.
Naniwa Specialty Stone, SP-491, korrel 12000 | Voordelig kopen bij knivesandtools.be
The 12K is a really good stone. It is a great finisher, but it's also pretty aggressive. Aggressive enough to correct a poor bevel from cheap stones with enough laps.
With some practice you should be able to improve your edges massively just with this one stone.
Go 1, 3, 8 with those cheap stones then build a very light slurry on the 12K and give it a good few laps and inspect the edge. It should be worlds apart in terms of finish from where the 8K left it, And the shave should also be much better.
On blades that are already shaving, Ink the edge, Give it a couple of passes on the 12K to check where the ink is removed to see if you need tape. If the ink on the very edge is still there you need tape. Then when you have the correct taping do 10-20 light passes, strop and check the edge. If it's not improved do another set of laps till it is where you want it.
I revisited the TAIDEA set today.
The setup:TAIDEA 1K / 3K combinatation stone, TAIDEA 5K, TAIDEA 8K - all stones flattened with a 150 grid diamond plate, edges chamfered.
The razor:Gold Dollar 208 (shaved good before, I usually hone up to 12K and finish on a natural stone)
The method:bevel setting (1K) - eight stokes with 10 circles on each pass, 20/20, 10/10, 5/5, 3/3, 2/2, 1/1 stokes, then twenty alternating strokes with light force to clean up.
3K - four strokes with 10 circles on each pass, fourty alternating strokes, then twenty alternating light stokes to clean up.
5K - same as 5K
8K - 20 alternating strokes, then another 20 very light strokes
The view through the loupe (60x loupe, 2$ model from Ebay):The 1K is terrible, one microchip in the middle that was not there before, the stone felt like gravel, it tore up tape like crazy. For the complete pass on the 1K one tape, and the tape residue glued toghether in small chunks. Lots of cleaning before the final clean up strokes. It sucks up water quickly and you need to spray fresh water on it like every 20 passes or so. Compared to my Naniwa SS 800 combination stone: not recommended.
The 3K feels slightly better, the stria pattern a little finer, still drinks a lot of water and tears up tape. No further microchips. Compared to any other 3K i have: barely does the job. Not worth the normal price on Aliexpress.
The 5K feels OK. Does not require that much water and doesn't harm the tape much. Stria pattern OK, not 5K in my mind but OK. Compared to the Naniwa 5K SS combination stone: it will do the job, not worth the normal price for the stone i see on Aliexpress.
The 8K feels OK. Needs even less water than the 5K and no harm to tape. Loupe shows a stria pattern not compareable to Naniwa SS 8K, but does the job. Not worth the normal price on Aliexpress.
Final inspection through the loupe OK, bevel set completly, one microchip in the middle still visible (meh, this is my Go-To test razor, it will be gone the next time). No burr reflection or anything visible.
The stropping (the cheapest strop on Ebay, something like 3$):Twenty strokes on linen, eighty on the leather side. Compared to any natural leather strop for 15$ up - complete junk. But hey, what could possibly go wrong at this stage? :rofl2:
The test shave:Surprisigly good WTG, acceptable ATG, not the closest shave, but a good starting point to learn how to shave. One small nick, user related. I learned how to hone the razors faster than i learned how to shave properly and safely... :shrug:
I would second that recommendation, the TAIDEA setup will work and it teaches you how to hone a razor. But if you start learning to shave with a sharp and comfortable razor it is much more fun! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
Alriiiiight, I have tried all the tips I got, and what a difference!
The razors aren't HHT sharp comming of the 8k, but they do pop some armhairs midway.
AND, I have tried to hone three different razors and the result is consistent it seems. Now waiting for that beard to grow to test them out!
Thanks for all the great comments, my biggest fault was to much pressure + whitout the torqueing(or how that is spelled).
Now being much more gentle, tough more effective.
hein31 - since you have Naniwa hones to compare them to, what grit rating would you say the Taidea hones are equivalent to? Almost sounds like the 3K behaves like a 1K, 5 like a 3K, and 8 like a 5K.
Pressure & torque are certainly key. You want to make sure all stria from previous tiers of honing are gone, and that pressure used is as light as you can get by the time you're doing your finishing strokes.
How to people feel about the Welsh slate Tri-hones being sold in the UK? They seem to fit in after the 8k stage.
Do you mean these hones?
NATURAL WELSH SLATE 3 HONE SET SHARPENING STONE CHISEL PLANE IDEAL GIFT | eBay
I've got that set from AJ, they're the Welsh slates I've referenced in other posts. I actually wish there was a more coarse option in there, all 3 can be used as finishers and the only one with any sort of middle-grit capacity is the Dragon's Tongue (Black one, far left). Usual warnings that come with natural hones - take grit ratings with a grain of salt, naturally formed materials have varying performance from rock to rock, your rock may not work like mine etc.
But all of mine are capable of putting a fine finished edge on a razor. I'm quite happy with them, even though mine did costa small tick more than those in the link...I think the ones I purchased were a slightly larger profile. At any rate, if you're patient enough to work with naturals, and you can figure out how to work the slurry, you can do a surprising amount of work with just those. I've set a bevel on the Norton 1K and honed it up to shaving sharp with just the Dragon's tongue for example.
Yes. Thanks.
Don't show me such things ! I almost bought them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
At best, they are 6-8k equivalent.
Put the money ($50 with shipping) towards a Naniwa 12K Super Stone.
You will be glad you did. Bet the vast majority, of them are sitting in the back of drawers. Mine are…
Not many 12k Naniwa’s gathering dust…
Mine are only in the 'back drawer' because I can't seem to stop acquiring more hones to play with. Such is the difficult life of a rock hound. :rofl2:
I don't see many for sale at reduced prices however (Welsh Tri-hone that is). You would think that since so many people should be unhappy with them that there would be a lot for sale in the secondary market. I don't see any however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I don't need a $100 12k. That's too practical anyway. :) I already get good edges.
For the price (especially were it not for the high shipping) the tri-hone looks like fun. I've heard the 3rd one is actually around 15k but rather harsh and the the middle one is close to 12k.
It's the Dragon's Tongue that is in the 6k-8k range (with or without slurry).
Did you get the tri-hone set or just one of the individual stones?
I already have the Chinese stone. Are you saying that none of the Welsh stones are finer than that? Really?
Sorry for the delay, i'm currently watching 33C3 videos... :angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
The 3K is more like a 2K, the 5K is somewhere under 4K (but not lower than 3,5K'ish ) and the 8 K is above 6K but not nearly a 7K. Well, the stones don't slurry, you can use them for various other knives and the option to use it with oil and higher grit results is still on the table. Tomorrow i will try it soaked with water and used with my "oil, dish detergent and water mix" on top of it (Parts:1-1-4). Most likely the grid rating was meant for use with oil, which makes a completly different topic.
I paid 5,99 € for the 1K/3K combination stone, 3,99 € for the 5K and the same for the 8K stone, shipping included. For that price it's worth the money, if you don't want to hone on it you take a hacksaw and make naguras... :rofl2:
I started my honing adventures with various german and chinese hones AND a 15K welsh slate (the small stone type, sorry currently it's not available). The welsh slate was used from the second honing session on and to this very day it spoiled me completely, so no synthetic finish for me except for testing purposes! ;)
Dragon's Tongue water only - just below 8k. With shave soap, I'd put it on the same tier as my Norton 8K.
The purple slate ranks with my Chinese 12K - this one has a little 'bite' to it. But it mellows out after a good stropping. Kind of feels like a synthetic edge.
The black slate (15K) is finer still than the purple slate, and I would not call the edge it leaves harsh. Unless you need a bit more practice keeping a proper angle. If you screw up, it'll let you know and quick.
I really do like the Welsh slates.
I can only say that the 15K slate (i use it with oil) produces a slightly better result, it's more about characteristics than it is about funtionality. My chinese hone makes the razor smooth like butter, but the sharpness is not as high as the welsh slate. For somes razors depending on size i prefer the chinese PHIG as finisher, for others it's the welsh slate. My Müller "Thüringer MST" (that definitely never saw Thüringen) is not as good, not as smooth and not as sharp as both of the above. I have a 12K Shapton Pro and i prefer anything natural, mostly because it definitely produces as harsher and irritating sharpness. But with a reduced amount of stokes you can tame it. And i have a chinese 12K resin bonded diamond stone that produced a super sharp edge (interestingly enough not as irritating as the Shapton), but i don't like the lack of comfort... :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
The 8 k Taidea are very good to use with slurry - practicly feels , like coticule slurry .The 3 K are a 1 K stone
And above all - for God sake , please dont buy Chinese strops - better buy a SRP replasement padle and make a padle - you will be very happy , not to have a chinese strop
I fully agree to your recommendation about the strops. Chinese strops are good for one thing only - to learn how to strop and not damaging a good strop while your at it. I found the chinese strop to be very unreliable concerning the reactivated sharpness. The leather side might be somewhere in the middle between a better strops rough side and the fine one. And if you get a treated leather side (chinese manufacturers obviously don't agree to the recommendation of natural, untreated leather) then it might be a lot of things, but never good. On the other side, i found they improve a totally bad edge to a point, where it might be shaveable. And to be honest, i didn't ever try to do such a thing on a good strop, simply because stropping is never a replacement for good honing.Quote:
Originally Posted by RusenBG
The slurry thing is right, you get a usefull workable edge without any burr. But still, it is far away for my personal preferences for smoothness and the effortless clean shaving experience. Oh, and if you use it soaked with water and a oil, dish soap and water mix without slurry, that increases the edge noticeably. So there is still room for improvement on the 8K.
Off the wall thought for the cheap strops...whatever they did to treat it is going to be more or less surface only. Maybe try hitting it with a bit of hot water to soften it up, work it by hand, then try some 600 grit paper to get rid of whatever treatment they used on the surface. Let it dry for a few days, give it a slick coat of oil, and see if that doesn't do you better. There might be good leather underneath that finish.
My Illinois strop was at the very least dyed/stained brown. I'll probably never get all that out, but working it over with sandpaper did work away the burnish and give me a better surface to work with. You might be able to make some improvement.
