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Can anyone explain the reason for the X strokes? They all make sense in a 5 x 2 barber hone, where the toes of the edge is outside the surface for the beginning of the stroke and the heel of the the edge its outside the stone at the end of the stroke. BUT, in a regular 8 x 3 stone it appears to the unexperienced that the toe gets 80% more "atention" than the heel.
If you have a full size hone, What is the benefit of the X stroke?
Thanks to all for your responses.
Good question! I await answers also. It works for me especially with smiling blades.
~Richard
Right on Geezer. Im not questioning wether it works or not. It definitely do. I just want to know the reason...
Almost every blade has at least a slight smile so if you don't do an x-stroke you will do the center of the blade more than the heel and toe
dear rodb, with respect... your response make me ask myself: what came first the hen or the egg? In other words, i think that the reason that most blades have a slight smile is the X stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodb
I am a newbie, nevertheless, the first thing i did to all the razors that i have bought is put the edge against a flat glass to verify that it is straight. Dovo, Boker, TI, Aust, Kanetaka, Stark, all of them were straight when they came in.
In the other hand, i bought two filarmonicas -definitely counterfeit, probably from Pakistan, jeje- to practice honing. Those had a slight smile on them. I mean, I am new to all this, there is a learning curve, and I thought stupid if I put a new expensive razor in a hone without knowing anything about that. So, I found the counterfeits in a barber supply store for $25 each. They were a good investment. Now i have been able to refresh my Aust, Dovo and Kanetaka to a pretty good shave. Those were a good instructional investment. But that is a different subject...
What do you think, rodb?
Straights have changed markedly over the decades You will be hard pressed to find a Sheffield blade from before 1880 that WONT have a "smile" and yes, they were made that way
later razors that were actually the straight straight edges, there didnt seem to be as much need for an x stroke, but the reality is, most people did not have a 3in wide stone. hell, most people did not have a stone.
As for "why does it work" I'm pretty sure its because when steel comes in contact with an abrasive, metal is removed, and done properly can result in an edge being produced
I'm not even going to start on the bent razor problems
geometry issues alone create a need to use an x stroke, to make sure all of the edge gets hones on every stroke, plus 3" stones are not all that common in the past, ie. thuringians and a lot of coticules, check them out a lot of 1 1/2 -2'" stones, just as mentioned, smiling blades need this to reach all of the edge, and just because your edge is a straight one , if the spine has geometry issues it causes the same affect.
plus your overthinking it, it works and has for a few hundred years I have one straight blade that has a warp in it, the edge really only gets honed as it approaches the edge of the stone on the x stroke, other wise on that side it would only hone the toe and heal, on the other side just the middle of the blade
I do an X stroke on any blade I hone. As I move the razor along the X, I keep the "emphasis" on the part of the blade near the edge of the hone. This way, if there are any inconsistencies on the blade, I deal with them automatically (the exception being the concave side of a warped blade). I've also never had a problem with blades wearing unevenly.
So for me, it's a bit of a Pascal's wager: I've developed a technique that works on (almost) any blade and have never noticed or thought of any downsides.
I believe the X stroke was a common sense move for the small barber hone. Circles are as well for honing on a barber hone, because of the size of the hone. From reading the old instructions that accompanied the old barber hones the X stroke was the finishing stroke to align the minute teeth.
On most razors not everything is completely straight and true in all three dimensions. X-strokes compensate for that
None that I've been able to discern as long as the hone is flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlospppena
Still do it out of habit since I learned to hone on a 1 7/8" hone.
Yes, as said above, razors are rarely perfectly flat and straight.
An X stroke is a simple way to alter, the pressure shift from the heel to the toe and hone the edge completely.
With a smiling razor, you may need to additionally lift the heel, but only slightly, when combined with an X stroke. Often the pressure shift is only as much as something you think about, kind of like turning a bicycle or motorcycle, you rarely turn the handle bars.
On a razor with a straight edge, if you hone with a perfect straight stroke without adjusting pressure to the heel or toe, you will eventually hone a frown however small, because that is where pressure normally concentrates.
Ink the whole bevel and put the razor on a high grit stone, do each stroke and you will see the impact of pressure, intended or not.
An X stroke evenly applies pressure and compensates for uneven straightness of the edge, any warp and/or thickness of the blade.
Basically the reason for the x stroke is that it ensures that the entire length of the blade makes contact with the blade. The best stroke is the rolling x stroke to make this happen. It is accomplished by imagining that your hone, no matter how wide it is in reality, is only 1 inch wide. That one inch strip along the edge of the hone should be where you should be focussing on contacting with the blade. As the x stroke progresses, the region of the blade making contact with the hone transfers progressively along the edge from the heel to the toe.
I found this that I am quoting from Utopian in the first link. I had not thought of it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
"Keep in mind that the Norton hones are NOT razor hones. By that I mean that they were not made to be razor hones. They simply are usable as razor hones. I don't know how many people are aware of this, but Norton also makes a set of hones that are 1.5 inches wide and I believe they are much more practical for razors."
I've yet to finda razor that some variant of the X-stroke can not hone. I do however, have several that can NOT be honed with straight back and forth strokes on a 3" wide hone. Not unless you want to turn your smiling razor into a frowning razor.
Same thing applies for strops and the X stroke. I don't have a single razor that can not be stropped with an X stroke. I do have a few that, if using straight back and forth laps you will never touch the heel or toe with the strop.
YMMV.
Very well said Euclid!Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
The X stroke is something that needs to be in the arsenal, but it's just one of the tools needed.
Where does the most wear occur on a razor during stropping?
I am quoting here a post by Randydance in the 1st thread that Utupian mentioned above:
This sums it up very well. I do tend to go straight up and down 3" hones but do shift the pressure a bit, similar to the rolling X-stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Out of all my razors, many of them NOS only one of them has complete contact between all the edge and hone in a straight line, even with that one i use a slight X strokes simply because of muscle memory.
I want to thank you all for your answers.
Reflecting on them, i still wonder if the X stroke is beneficial for a reason similar to the one that makes it easier to cut a steak with a table knife if you "slice" the knife back and forth through the flesh. I mean, it would be tougher to cut it with a straight downward cut, dont you think?
Wouldnt the X stroke "multiply" the friction between the edge and the stone, making it to remove more metal per stroke?
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Not multiply but the diagonal will be a bit longer than the length of the hone. Just look at ebay razors: I bet you that most of the frowning edges have been created by amateurs not using an X-stroke.
Only way to increase friction is more surface area in contact with the hone, and more pressure exerted on the two surfaces.
X strokes typically have less surface area in contact, and I don't use much if any pressure after the 1K hone. But if I needed to adjust that, I wouldn't do so by modifying my stroke.
When you start the stroke the area in contact is at the heel. As you proceed through the motion, the area that is in contact with the stone shifts toward the toe. The purpose is to ensure that the entire blade makes contact with the stone at some point - without risk of focusing too much pressure in the center and making a concave bow/frown of the edge.
If anything, we want less pressure and less material removed, especially toward the finishing phases.
Sometimes I dance to and fro as I am performing a rolling X and in this way I am able to achieve perfect dimensional pressure along the whole edge. If I am honing with circles then I spin myself clockwise to get the blade even unless I am performing the return stroke with circles. Why then, I spin myself counterclockwise. This is why I must "hand hone" as these gyrations are near impossible while seated at a table. :rofl2:
Naturally, I jest! Really though I have wondered the same thing at one time but through practice I understand it to be a "pressure" thing and not "what part of the blade is on the hone." I use circles, half strokes, straight up and back, heel forward, toe forward, X strokes, rolling X, lift the heel, lift the toe, side of the hone, a corner. Whatever it takes to get the whole edge sharp. That is the key. Do whatever it takes.
.....and one and two and spin and dip and jump and slide.
I watched Lynn's video on using it but the one that really explains it the best is the most recent video by Mastro Livi. He demonstrates it on his chromium oxide loom strop. He says that keeping the edge perpendicular on the hone or strop and using the X stroke keeps the blade surface flatter. He says the blade has a tendency to lift using a regular stroke. I use it and found it works the best. The blade is sharp and the bevel even. I also found that it won't leave nicks or marks on the strop.
I would ask, why the straight stroke?
I only have one blade in many that is truly flat.
In saying that I don't have many full hollows, they are more flatter than other grinds. (Bad English)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
The two questions that need to be answered are:
1. "How straight is straight for the razor edge?"
2. "How flat is flat for the surface of the stone?"
We are trying to generate a razor edge that is uniform at the submicron level. A DMT Diaflat lapping plate is certified to be flat to +/-0.0005". While that seems impressive, 0.0005" (1/2 mil) is 12.5 microns. We are unlikely to get our stones much flatter than that.
Thus, to create a uniform edge on a razor that is not quite straight using a stone that is not quite flat, we need to use a combination of circles, straight strokes, and x-strokes. Another thing that I do is to rotate the stone 180 degrees mid-way through the honing on each stone to help compensate for variations in the flatness of the stone side to side.
The flatness of the stone, does not matter that much, because we are not honing on the exact same point with each stroke, that it is smooth, is more important.
A flatter stone is a bit more efficient, as more grit is in contact with the razor, but nothing that an extra stroke or two would not compensate for.
The age-old question, how did the old guys get their stones flat, before dial indicators and diamond plates? And how flat is a grinding wheel or a spinning sanding belt?
Gotta love the Esoteric discussions on SRP sometimes
One thread discussing the Flatness of the hones and the X stroke being needed and the one next to it discussing using Rounded and Convex hones
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ed-stones.html
Maybe I should just Merge the two and watch the fun
:popcorn:
Hone and blade flatness aside. I do the x because it's what I taught my self over countless hours of reading and countless hours of practice.
Evil genius...I like it!Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
+1 My dads hones were dished and it never bothered him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
As for the old guys- Emery powder on concrete and then green paint (CrOx) on wood for a balsa strop :-)
I had also heard / read that ideally you wanted the striations to be uniform on the bevel at more or less a diagonal pattern, i.e., 45 degrees, lined up from toe to heel along the edge of the bevel and meeting at the apex from both sides.
///////\\\\\\\ diagonal striations as opposed to ||| ||| straight striations...doubt it matters, whatever floats your boat, but the X stroke ensures you're getting the uniform creation of the bevel and produces these consistent type of striations.
Mind you, I'm basically at the place where honing gymnastics, i.e., do what it takes to pass the shave test...or do what works to try and get as uniform a bevel as you can will do me just fine.
That, and a tantrum or three I find helps immensely in setting the bevel, yelling at the razor encourages the bevel to set as well....think I saw that in one of Glen's videos....:)
Yelling at bevels. That's more for advanced honing techniques section of SRP.
Sometimes you just have to give the razor a little bit of verbal encouragement and moral support. Let the rusty little :soapbox: know that if it doesn't get it's :cen together and shave right, there's gonna be a reckoning. :rant:
:overkill:
I do that when i repair two strokes outboards. It must work on razors. :-)
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I figure colorful language help when fixing houses, cars, and just about everything else. So the tradition might as well carry forward to razors. Also helpful: holding your tongue right, and using the correct squinky eye.