Hones/Procedure

Hello Gentlemen,
So this is my first post in the SRP so forgive me if I’m committing any faux pas. I’m asking these questions because I’m having a hard time finding this info in one place. Also… I’d love to hear your different opinions.

Background: I’ve been shaving with a straight razor for a few years now but have never felt comfortable with the hone. It’s time I bought some quality stones and became self sufficient.

1. What stone(s) would you recommend if I have a blade that isn’t shave ready but has a nice edge? I’d love to hear about brands but I’m more asking about grit. Could I get away with the Naniwa 3000/8000 combo stone?

2. On average, if you have a blade that has an edge but isn’t quite shave ready, how many passes over each side of the stone do you need? This is where things get shaky for me. A lot of sites/vids are dedicated to technique, but how long are you supposed to hone? How do you know you’re done honing before moving to the strop?

Any tips on procedure would be really helpful.

Thanks!!

The 3/8 combination hone is a good place to start. The Norton 4/8 is also good.

On average, you hone until you're done. If it's one that previously shaved well and just needs a touch up, you would probably be best served to try a few passes (10-20) on the 8K first. If that doesn't help, then do passes on the 3K until it's as sharp as you can get on the 3k. Then you'll do passes on your 8K until all the 3K scratches are gone. Don't get hung up on counting passes, it's the performance of the edge that matters not how many laps you did. What it takes will vary with steel types, pressure exerted, and of course experience.

An 8K is certainly a good shave and still has a bit of ability to cut. There are plenty of people that began touching up blades on the 12K Naniwa Super Stone and have had great success. Unless you start doing restoration work there is no point in going lower that the 3 or 4K that often come as part of a combo hone. If all you are doing is touching up you will likely never need less than an 8K but they are a handy combo hone. Natural hones are a bit of a rabbit hole and if you go down that path there are so many natural finishers and techniques for working with them I just have to say there are tons of threads to join in on.

How many razors do you have?

How many do you think you will have?

To start out, you probably are better off with a quality barber hone or, as suggested by Rezdog, a Naniwa 12k. The latter can remain a part of a hone progression some time later if you want to do more extensive honing, but is also is quite effective as a maintenance hone.

I would suggest to give a coticule a try. In my opinion, an ideal stone for touch-up work because of its variable workings. One has one stone for a wide range of applications depending on whether it is treated with water or slurry or the method used (dullicot, unicot ...). In addition, it gives very good signals as soon as work ist done.

Practice and experimentation will answer all your honing questions..
Folks here can help though.

I'm going to have to advise against a natural stone. If I had began with a coticule, especially one that behaves like the one I have now, I would probably never have gotten a good shaving edge off the stone and be forever chasing my tail on a stone that is actually a poor performer with water and standard surface preparation methods.

Start with a known good synthetic, then once you can get a good edge off that maybe consider adding a natural finisher.

Definitely! Do not buy a coticule unless you know for certain that it performs well for razors. Confirm it before hand! I have 1 that performs like a piece of curb outside on the sidewalk and another current stock select grade that performs worse than my worst jnat. Stay with synthetics until you really know what you are buying in a natural. I'm sure there are plenty of good coticules out there because of the reports I've seen coming in. And from those reports, they have been described as very old and used particularly for razors and then there are particular veins that are likely to produce good razor grade coticules. It's just buying blindly from fresh stock that you cannot do, it must be tested before hand to do exactly what you want it to do and be specific.

Welcome to the forum.

Post some photos of the razor, what brand is it?

What do you mean, I have a blade that isn’t shave ready but has a nice edge?

Has the razor ever been honed, shave ready?

You cant go wrong with the Norton or Naniwa line. Read the first 3 post in the Honing Forum, it may answer many of your questions.

Maybe you're right. It's just that I'm addicted to coticule. My first stone was one (Les Latneueses Hybrid) and I have remained to this day - a life without coticule is possible, but senseless:gth. That's why I think everyone else must feel and experience exactly the same thing ...
With synthetic stones, I have never been able to make friends, and I therefore do not recommend them - no matter how useful and helpful they may be.

I agree that a good natural is hard to beat. Maybe even impossible. In fact my synthetics are used more for kitchen knives than razors these days. However, bad/hard to work with naturals do exist. My coticule is a good example of this.

I lapped it flat, then polished to 1K and tried diluticot. Terrible shave, little better than shaving off my Norton 4K. Repeated a few times, same result. Polished the stone to 8k, or as close as I could get. Not much better. Burnished with 2,000 laps from a razor that was in need of touch up. Eliminated slurry and used it as a finisher off my synthetic hones to be sure the razor had a good shaving edge before touching the coticule. Still the shaves with water were terrible, but moving closer to the right direction about a 6K edge I'd wager. Tried with pure mineral oil - edge was a dud, 6K at best. Cut mineral oil 50/50 with mineral spirit: Eureka! An edge that shaves (but still barely passable).

What finally pushed mine into a place where I would call it a good finishing stone was coating the stone with Chrome Oxide, then buffing it with a cotton wheel. Now it makes a beautiful shaving edge. But there will be no diluticots or slurry work with this stone because the surface cannot be disturbed, and water still does not provide an acceptable shave. It must be used with 50/50 mineral oil and spirits, with very light pressure - less than weight of blade. Could you imagine a new fellow with no experience trying to dial in such a difficult stone to work with? How many hours of failed diluticots, unicots, honing up to a certain point with synthetics only to have his 'finisher' degrade his edge? How long would it take to figure out the issue was with the stone, not his own hands without the experience and tools necessary to determine where the problem lies?

Synthetic hones may not create as nice a shave, but they also don't come with the chance of getting a stone with this issue. Once lapped smooth and polished to maybe 1000 or 2000, they were ready to work. The only problem left to resolve was the skill of the person looking me in the mirror every morning.

I love my Naturals. I would say my Welsh slates, now polished just as much as my coticule, create an edge that tops my coticule in every metric. Keener, sharper, more comfortable...they're hard to match, I can't imagine anything beating them. But I don't recommend them to beginners, because there's no guarantee the next person will get stones that match the performance of mine. And they came with their own learning curve, though admittedly much smaller than my coticule.

I can not argue against - only one: Maybe he can try it nevertheless with a coticule ..
Honing is not (only) rationality, but much will, feeling and passion.

Might I suggest reaching out to a mentor you can meet up with locally? This way you may be able to try a number of hones and actually get advanced coaching on your technique, pressure, tests, etc. I know my time spent with Glen was invaluable in getting me started on the right track with honing. Since that time, I put down the Norton 4/8 combo and went all-in with Naniwa Super Stones and have no regrets whatsoever. Even with Glen's tutelage, I found I was using too much pressure and also had to work on more advanced X-strokes depending on the blade I was honing at the time.

Good luck in your honing quest. I think you will find it a very satisfying addition to this sport.

I too think coticules are to be avoided when starting out. After going through dozens of different stones, sold many regretted a lot of them, I finally believe that if I were to go way back to the beginning, I'd say you could succeed with just five stones, all synthetic. I would in hindsight buy these. A Naniwa chosera 1k. Naniwa superstones 3k, 5k, 8k and a Suehiro Gokumyo 20k. I hear people saying, 'dont spend a fortune on the 20k.' I reply with the fact it is easy to use. It's easier than the Naniwa superstone 12k to use, and will last a life time. IMHO, this combo suits both beginners and seasoned pros who also use this type of progression. The best thing about this progression is that you really won't need to do anything more. You won't need another stone as far as I'm concerned. At some stage in the future you might wish to dabble with natural stones, no problem doing that at all. But with what I have suggested your edge will be the equal of any, no matter what it is honed on. There are no edges out there that can say they are better than that of the Gok 20k consistently. I know that some utilise excellent natural stones, but the honers out there who have such nats, are seasoned and know what they are doing, so I am not denigrating naturals, I am giving a new honer a regime that will give top class edges consistently and for a long time.

Yes in the right hands a natural can be a great edge,,most likely in a new honers hand maybe not so. And I agree the 20k will rival most any edge out there, I do not believe that synthetics are not as good as naturals, because that's in the hands of the guy honing, I've got edges from synthetics that are as good as I've ever shaved with. And then again I had a super edge from Kyle off of his jnats.

As to money spent ask those guys how much they have in their naturals finding what their looking for versus one time buy of the 20k. I bet it's a pretty cheap buy in most instances, so as a new guy meet up with a mentor and stick with the synthetics for repeatable success, and get to know them, cause if your not getting good edges off them then your not doing it right which means the naturals won't be any better. 1,3,8,12, 20 almost a foolproof system and you can still use most of them even with naturals. Tc

Yep. The only reason I don't recommend synthetics beyond 8K is because you have to be able to get a good shave at that level, otherwise moving on is just wasted time.

And of course, once a person has a reliable, repeatable system where they consistently get good results, then it is time to figure out what you'd like to use as a finisher.

And the options are boundless. Shapton 16k & 30k, Gok 20, Naniwa 10k and 12k, Ice Bear 10k, Barber Hones, Arkansas Black/Translucent/True Hard, any number of Welsh slates, coticules, Thuris/Eschers, Jnats, a PHIG, Chrome Ox, FeOx, diamond pastes...you can even stop at 8K and be happy with that.

The hobby can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. It can also be as simple or complex as you want it to be. 1 stone honing, 5 or more stone progressions, no paste or 3 progressions of pastes. I've even seen guys talking about leather strop progressions on top of all that.

Whatever makes your face (and your wallet) happy.

I would say for the newer honers out there, you don't need both the 12k Naniwa superstone and a Suehiro Gokumyo gok 20 k. As has been mentioned there is no point going to any stone if you are not able to shave with it off an 8k stone. But if the 8k is ok, then I can't see why you would need a 12k Naniwa. You can comfortably go from the 8k to the 20k. I personally go from the Naniwa superstone 10k to the gok 20k and I've been doing things this way for quite a while now, and I'm more than happy.

Lol, I will offer a dissenting opinion, 12k, Gok20k, jnat, just go for it!

Why? You can't master what you don't have.

Cheers, Steve

The 3/8 combo from Naniwa is perfect.... If you still feel a need for more, the 12K Naniwa SS would come next and you do NOT need any more, unless you are looking to play with naturals or something like that . After the 12K Naniwa SS, you can give a Natural or perhaps a Suehiro Gokumyo 20K a try if you wish..... it will be different than the 12K, not necessarily better perhaps, but different. Only you can decide if that is the way you wish to go. But... for starters... the 3/8 Naniwa is an excellent choice....

When I started with straights, I was stuck with the Norton 4/8K and while it was a fine hone.... I think I would have been better off with the Naniwa 3/8. Today, I own the complete series of Naniwa SS hones from 3K to 12K and I have a Naniwa 1K professional I occasionally use for dealing with damaged razors, something you need not concern yourself with as the 3K side of the 3/8 will do the job... just a wee be slower.

And for the fess up time, I also own 6 natural hones and I used to own Shapton Glass hones from 1K to 16K, but the latter were replaced by the Naniwa SS hones because of my personal choice... I just like the feel when honing on Naniwa hones.... they are so soft and sticky feeling.... Shapton glass hones are hard feeling, but they did work great, and would also be an excellent choice.

I am not opposed to quick, easy and consistent but a set of FLAT arkies in soft, hard, and black or translucent will provide you with as fine a shave as you can get with any of the synthetics. Arkies are consistent and easy, just not quick. The mastery is mostly learning to vary pressure and honing solutions plus doing lots of strokes.

The secret to finer grit hones is very little to no pressure on the blade. When I first got my 16K Shapton I used to much pressure & to many laps on the stone. I learned to spend more time on my 8K stone before moving up in grit.
I have a Coti that I use a lot. I learned to finish under running water on the Coti This changes your finished to a whole new playing field to me. I also use the Coti on some razors that always feel harsh after the 16K hone. Two or three laps on the Coti with no pressure under running water really smooth's out those edges for me.

Slawman

As your experience and skill levels go up, so does your desire to expand, and for many our hobby takes them down the route of natural stones. I am not experienced in using Japanese naturals. I have messed with coticules and failed. For me in the last nearly a year I've settled on the Naniwa way, finishing up with a 20k Suehiro. I now get excellent shaves EVERY time with all my razors. I have a dozen or so in my active rotation (another 20 that I keep safe for a day to come) So, I must admit I am paying closer attention to jnat options, but to be honest I don't know what I'd need and how much I would need to spend to get a finishing set up of nats. The one variable I have changed is strops. I am an unashamed fanatic of Kanayama strops. IMHO they do make a difference to the quality of my edges. Leave that for another day. So after the Gok 20, strop up with 20 laps on canvas 30 laps on suede and 100 on Cordovan, using the #70000 Kanayama. Cheers gents and please don't send me jnat options. I am already on thin ice with she must be obeyed over my strop collection.....lol

Bob, have you watched Dr. Matt's video series on Coticule honing? The one main lesson I took from those videos was to finish with the Coti. under running water. What a difference that change in my Coti. honing has made for me.
I also like good strops. I have two vintage shell strops. A Koken & a Jager Barber supply. I do 50 laps on the Koken first then 50 on the Jager. The Jager is a smoother stropso I finish with that. The Koken came with a Scotish linen second strop & the Jager has a treated leather rough finish second strop. I have treated one side of that strop with.5 micron Dia spray with great results.
I treat my shell strops with Ballistol & I have good results with it.

Slawman

I did see Matt's videos, if I remember he used a modified Gd no tape. I looked at doing things in many of the suggested ways. I could not get any of my coticules to cut any steel, no swarf, not a mark, and for the life of me I couldn't get them to work. These were, two 8 x 3 selects from The superior shave, and another 2 #10 Bouts. New 8 x 3 selects cost a fortune and after I had 'converted' 5 razors to coticule edges, I had very ordinary shaves. Eventually I sold three of them as they were to me expensive paperweights. And I had intended to keep one of them to re visit down the track. In a stroke of irony this very morning I got an offer on ebay for the last one, and I posted it off to the new owner a couple of hours ago. I have been honing a fair few years, and my edges with synthetics are top class, I can't imagine a better edge exists. Now I hear the jnat guys giving their views. I readily accept the jnat must give great results in the right hands. I wasted in my eyes a fair amount of cash on coticules and although I am very interested in Japanese natural stones, I was savaged financially by the coti and as far as jnat go, I'd admit I would not know what a starting point would be. But I do know they Aren't cheap. So for the moment I will wallow in great shaves from my synthetics, but HAD is out there and I'm careful of repeating my prior problems. Cheers