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Has anyone ever sealed a synthetic stone with laquer, nail polish etc. My naniwa 5-10k pros are prone to crazing and I am consindering sealing all but one side... that would probably void my year warranty but if it stops the crazing I would be happy with it.
Will it damage the stone ?
It probably won't damage the stone if you apply some kind of lacquer, as long as it doesn't penetrate too deeply in the stone (plus you can lap it and say that you didn't do such a thing, although kind of unfair for the seller), but I suspect the issue is what you do before or after you hone. If you leave the stones in the water for too long, or if you dry them too quickly, if you leave them in direct sunlight, the water you're using might contain ions that interact with the bonding material, the temperature is too hot or too cold, humidity etc etc. It's a pain and when it starts it's hard to stop it. Sealing the stone means the water might get trapped in there and there is a chance your problem might get worse, so, I don't know what can help with your case.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Naniwa chosera/pros are great stones but they do have that problem with the hair thin cracks that sometimes appear. And are a bit on the expensive side as well.
Since my 5 & 10 have the crazing I've used them and they work the same as before. If it gets to the point where the crazing becomes worse, and it affects the honing, I will take Glen's advice and lap the label side and use it for as long as it works.
As far as lacquer, I might think about giving that a shot on the stones 1k, 3k, 8k that haven't suffered the crazing. But not on my 5 & 10. Once the cow is out of the barn no sense shutting the door.:shrug:
I wonder of it would help on stones that are "healthy". If it does, or at least if you try it and your stones end up not developing it anyway, please do let us know.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Aren't these meant to be soaked for just a few minutes before use, and swell a touch during the process? I'd be concerned that at best the sealer would crack when the stone swells, and at worst might seal in moisture like Vasilis hinted at and lead to uneven expansion that might make the issue worse.
Yes, that's right, they are meant to be soaked briefly. Most guys found them to be good with splash and go. I still give them a brief soak. I let my first hone soak in a rubbermaid container in the sink. After a few minutes I begin honing on that one. As soon as I take it out of the container I throw the 2nd one in to soak while I use the first one. I go through the progression like that with each hone. I just splash and go on the 20k suehiro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
IIRC Lynn, Glen, maybe Birnando do splash and go with them and so far so good for them. I just figure that it has been working for me so I keep doing what I began with.
You've got a darn good point there though, I don't know what effect lacquer would have on the soaking, or splash and go, but I'd be leery of trying it.
@JimmyHAD -- Pretty certain Glen follows your same procedure in short-soaking the Naniwas one stone ahead; he mentions the habit in his Naniwa honing videos up on YouTube. He says something akin to it stabilizing the hone in his opinion.
Ahh, okay, maybe I wasn't remembering correctly, or it may have been the superstones I was thinking of. I believe he was using them before he went to the Choseras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedster
I would say no! They shouldn't be soaked. I never soak mine as the vendor STRONGLY advised not to. $250+ for a synthetic best believe I will be listening to the guy who's job is selling these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
I forget where I read, heard or saw this quote but I liked it. "Buy from someone who's as passionate as your are but knows more." - amen.
Yes, Jimmy, it was specifically with the Super Stones, and I believe you are correct that he prefers the Choseras these days. Told me they cut really fast, which is ideal for someone who hones lots of razors.
Hmm...maybe that was the manual of arms for the super stones? Might've been thinking of the same video JimmyHAD was thinking about.
If they're used splash & go then that changes things a bit since they shouldn't get enough water to swell up much.
My Chosera 1k, 3k, and 5k s are all sealed. The jury is still out on whether this is good or not. It makes sense to me and I like the way sealed stones feel in the hand.
I must ask kind sir,Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
How long ago did you seal them and what did you use? Is the hone cracking at all?
Thank you,
Scott
Marshal -- Even in Glen's video, he makes no claims of swelling..just that they "stabilize" (believe that's the word he used). He simply soaks them for a few minutes before he uses each stone since they apparently work better for him that way. But, he's first to admit to being somewhat OCD and splash and go may work fine too. After he's done with a particular, hone, he wipes it dry with a towel. I've done the same thing in my Naniwa SS progression and have had zero problems with the stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Well, I lost a rubber foot on my 10k base, but other than that no problems. ;) (bought mine in 2012 so they are mounted to plastic stands w/ 4 rubber feet)
And, I'd like to punch the brainiac in Naniwa's marketing department who insisted Super Stones should be named Specialty stones and the Choseras should be called Pros. Talk about introducing confusion for no good reason but a paycheck! :OT
My 5k was sealed when I bought it (used) and it has developed almost imperceptible checks. My 3k came with checks (used) but seemed to heal itself by filling the checks with binder material.It has been sealed for a couple of months. My 1k came with very minor checks (used) but they have disappeared (lapped out) and it is now check free. I just recently sealed it. I used nail polish.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
The Super Stones most definitely swell and I believe that's what's meant by stabilizing. They seem to swell in water for a few minutes before they stabilize or stop swelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedster
This. Its been a while, so video info and things I've read may be sort of melding together. But there's the crazing issue discuseed here, and the warping issue that some folks were having with one line or the other. I think SS, more so than pro. Letting them soak a minute allowed them to swell evenly and reduces lapping & warpage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeJay
I don't think they swell much, just enough for those of us who are extra particular about a flat honing surface to notice they were lapping the ever living heck out of the stone to keep it the way they like it.
And I second the motion to punch that marketing guy. Right in the throat. Super stone and Chosera was easy to remember. Didn't really need changing, and now we have 2 designations each for what is essentially the same 2 grades of stone.
You guys are forgetting the "Sharpening Stone" line which is the specialty line but 20mm instead of 10. Just to add to confusion even more.
My Choseras are Mounted to Cedar Bases and sealed just like if they were J-NatsQuote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
I have had zero issues since doing so,,
I am about through the 1k Chosera and made a trade for a new Pro 1k I am going to start this one mounted and sealed
My Naniwa Supers I have done nothing to, other then use them, I did waste a bit of good hone down the drain before I learned to let them stabilize first by chasing the "Flat"
ps: I use Min-wax Wood Sealer on the bases and the hones to seal them it allows for flexing
It's a bit off topic but I have a question on that; I have a fine maruka, but it's developing a hairline crack and if left alone, there is a chance it will split in the future. I intend to glue it on a piece if wood, and I've prepared a piece of white oak for that. What is the best type of glue for that purpose? I assume oak is a good choice, I'll waterproof the piece anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
I am not sure :)
I have seen most J-Nats attached to Cedar so that is what I used, I used Marine Epoxy to attach the hones, keeping in mind that taking them back off is near impossible..
I sealed the Cedar with 3 coats before the epoxy...
Also if that wood flexes at all it will snap an already weak stone in an instant so make sure of what you are doing before you do it...
I dismissed cedar because it's from the gymnosperm category and they usually contain resins that corrode steel, so I considered it a type of wood I would never use for steel and stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
So, wood flexes. Makes sense. It needs to be completely waterproof, and I need to be careful with the glue, temperature, humidity just in case, and and apply new coats of lacquer frequently on the stone and wood, just in case. I guess I'll go for real lignum vitae just in case.
Lignum = SWEET !!!!
That's an excellent choice. LV should be waterproof on it's own, right?
Well you could take a page from Shapton's book and use tempered plate glass. Glass won't swell, absorb water, or warp which is why I assume they chose it.
I have observed that my Shapton Pros appear to be sealed with something on the sides and back. I know Takeshi-San uses tile sealer.
Cheers, Steve
After thinking about it, that's what I'll do with my maruka. Only, it doesn't have to be tempered glass (I don't care about the damage that will be caused if the glass breaks with the stone on it, and if it does, it'd better do some damage!), I'll go for a piece of haze/frosted glass, I think that way the glue will work better. Maybe the back side needs to be the same, reduces the chance of slipping. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
A piece of polished flat granite might work as well and maybe be more durable to bumps and drops. Just a thought.
Cheers, Steve
I don’t get the point of sealing synthetics, some of my synthetics have crazing, but does not affect performance, so is not something I worry about. I also don’t fret about flatness, just smooth and load-up free.
I too, would think sealing synthetics, would trap “in” water and cause more problems.
Lately, I have been using splash and go technique with synthetics, even Kings. I use a squirt bottle, and plastic tray, but they fill and hold water after a few minutes. I do use, probably more water than most. The swarf and extra runoff, can be soaked up with a sponge.
I have been doing some experimentation on swarf load up on some stones, especially the Super Stones, and have found, it can greatly affect performance.
For me, it is well worth getting up, walking to the sink and doing a quick lap with a diamond plate, under running water, in terms of finish and speed.
There is also the other side of the coin; synthetics, the ones safe from crazing, that appear to be so thirsty you can't keep any water on their surface even after leaving them in the water for days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I'm thinking about sealing one or more of these as well like the Sigma 1.2k or the Sun/Asahi binsui stone from namikawa (supposedly 400 grit but the construction is similar to the cheaper and coarser SiC stones; really solid made without binders, hard but can't get glazed, and even if the particles are in the 400 grit size, they break down easily for slurry use, the surface is very smooth as well and you end up with a perfect bevel setting stone that shaves hair which is my definition as a basic bevel setter, if it shaves hair it does the job, leaving a smooth, uniform edge) I will probably try it at some point.
It costs them money to seal the stones, so there is a reason though maybe we do not understand it. The crazing may or may not be an issue for honing, but if enough people return stones and say on forums that they are not going to buy brand X because they craze, they will do something about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
What follows is speculation on my part. I have suspected that the crazing and cracking is caused by the stone warping when it is unevenly wetted or dried. That's why they say no fms, no heat, keep them out of the sun (Shapton). Such warping has been seen by our members. The warping could cause internal stresses and cracking/crazing.
I have also noted that my early USA Shapton Pros have the same graphics as the non-US Kuromaku and speculate that the 'reformulation' for the US market and the dry Western US air was simply sealing the sides and back of the stone. I also believe that stones warping could possibly be the reason for the Shapton Glass series. A Glass stone is of course, sealed on the back and the 5mm sides aren't much area and may be sealed too. The glass would prevent a thinner abrasive layer from warping and maybe cracking or crazing.
They'd probably never believe anyone would even be interested in things like this. Harrelson Stanley may be able to provide some insight for the Shapton stones.
Cheers, Steve
The Shaptons do not warp, alt least in my experience. They are brittle, and the new formulated Glass Series is even more brittle and thin. So that is obviously a good combination to benefit from the glass backplate hack.
Warping seems to be the Naniwa Tradition, when ist comes to resin boud stones of course.
I am still undecided wether to seal or not. I see the easier handling and maintenance (well, that is if you like to clean the sides of the stones). The Shapton Kuromaku might benefit from it. But my Naniwa Kombination stones do not warp, so i don't think about sealing them.
A friendlier and less permanent solution to sealing, more like a protective layer, not for the naturals that tend to split but for other kinds of problems is renaissance wax.
I've used it on the sides of a Suehiro 320grit, too thirsty stone and swarf residues. It helped on both, and it doesn't interfere at all on honing or lapping. You don't even notice it there, the stone just stays clean. I applied it with my finger, small quantity and covered the whole area on the sides without leaving any spaces, once more than a year ago, and I'm still frequently use the stone, although the stone has gotten a bit too thin from use now, and it still lasts.
Edit; For anyone who isn't familiar with it, it some microcrystalline silicon something that helps with corrosion resistance, I think it's food safe as well but don't take my word for it, and you can apply it on any knife/razor/sword, used as wood finishing as well since it inhibits water absorption, even paintings if I remember correctly in the description. If applied, sparingly, on any place of a piece of steel that doesn't come in contact with something, it forms a very thin layer that inhibits corrosion in almost any environment. Unfortunately, it comes off easily. If you rub it, most of it, even dry, will leave the surface. Acetone removes it completely.
This is all giving me a great idea for sealing the sides and bottom of a Norton 1k hone. Maybe solve that endless thirst they have!
I'm kind of glad I wasn't the only one that immediately thought of that after reading this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie
I've tried it before with a King-like Suehiro 1k. Didn't work but won't hurt anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Cheers, Steve
Well, what I was thinking was a bit outside the scope of the thread. And not relative to Renaissance wax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
I was pondering taking something like shellac, known barber hone binder that likely wouldn't hamper the grit much (or honing at all) and let one of our ever thirsty Norton friends drink it up til all those pores were filled.
Of course if that backfired and the filler was too hard, it would no longer be 1k. And couldn't be reversed. :hmmm: