How to hold the razor to prevent it from dulling on the hone

I have a problem with holding the razor flat on the hone. at least I think so
If I go from 1k ( King or Nanniwa ) to 3k the bevel is pretty well set
then I go to Coticule or Welsh Slate with slurry , and the bevel gets lost on the way

so I am wondering if I keep the razor not flat enough or so
one failure by going along the edge of the stone and you are off to the beginning or by maybe putting to much emphasis on the edge ???

are there tricks or points of attention that you experienced honers use to make sure not to kill the bevel again during the process ?

Have you lapped your hones?

All of them need to be flat so the bevel stays in contact with the stone face.

There are numerous vids here on honing. In particular, see the ones done by gssixgun.

yes, the hones are flat
just doubt my ability to keep the razor on the stone the right way

I guess I don't get it, if you have the spine flat on the stone and the edge is one the stone too that is how you keep it flat, just don't pick up the spine or edge as your doing your laps, if your picking it up then you just need to slow down and concentrate. not being an a-hole but that is a simple fix, but the edge being killed when you go up in stones may not be what your thinking, maybe the bevel really isn't fully set on the 1k stone as you might think. you might want to post your location , there may be help near you to figure out what your doing wrong. how long have you been honing? good luck Tc

I have had similar problems. I am still relatively new to all this and don't get to doing this very often so my learning curve is long, but I find using my other hand on the blade as a guide not to add pressure helps.

As Rolodave has said Gssixgun's videos are very good.

yes , I also work a lot with both hands
one as a very light guide
when trying with one hand I noticed very easily going wrong
but if I see the speed of those experienced guys :-)
and I use very little pressure

but I do not know if those people are just keeping the razor flat or concentrate more on the edge ??

If the motions used to set the bevel on the lower grit hone are correct, then thise same motions should remain correct on the slate or coticule.

How do you know the bevel is "lost?" Are you following up with less or no slurry?

Where are you located? Maybe we can find you some local help.

I know that because of the HHT
I follow indeed with thinner slurry and dilute to water only

but also the undercutting becomes worse

I live in the Netherlands , Europe , and will indeed meet some honers there if the problem persists

but what I also actually wonder is
do you just keep the blade flat or just concentrate slightly on the edge or so ?

Try moving the honing 'plane' up or down relative to your elbow bend. (Raise or lower the table) You will find the optimum ergonomic position that keeps everything flat.

If you are holding the hone in your hand, the same rule applies if you keep your wrist locked.

Also works for stropping. Find the right position and it all falls into place.

ok
that's an idea to try
honing with one hand causes even more possibilities for not staying flat I am afraid ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiFuMi

ok
that's an idea to try
honing with one hand causes even more possibilities for not staying flat I am afraid ?

---

Give it a try. You might be surprised. You will achieve equilibrium between the forces 'up' on the stone and 'down' on the blade. Or you cut your fingers or wrist :rofl2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiFuMi

but what I also actually wonder is
do you just keep the blade flat or just concentrate slightly on the edge or so ?

---

Blade stays flat, stroke remains the same. The only thing that should maybe change is pressure. Starting with a little more pressure to set the bevel, then progressively less until it's just the weight of the blade working on the stone.

Are you using magnification, or just going by feel/HHT?

As for honing with one hand, you'll learn to feel when the blade is flat on the hone. The more you do it, the more you can tell by feel where the pressure is focused on the blade. Not that you can't do the same honing with 2 hands. It's just a different path to the same place.

Another question, are you using tape? If you are, change it more often. Tape wears faster than steel, even on a less aggressive stone like a coticule or Welsh Slate. As the tape wears, the edge will be lifted away from the face of the hone. It doesn't take much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal

Blade stays flat, stroke remains the same. The only thing that should maybe change is pressure. Starting with a little more pressure to set the bevel, then progressively less until it's just the weight of the blade working on the stone.

Are you using magnification, or just going by feel/HHT?

As for honing with one hand, you'll learn to feel when the blade is flat on the hone. The more you do it, the more you can tell by feel where the pressure is focused on the blade. Not that you can't do the same honing with 2 hands. It's just a different path to the same place.

Another question, are you using tape? If you are, change it more often. Tape wears faster than steel, even on a less aggressive stone like a coticule or Welsh Slate. As the tape wears, the edge will be lifted away from the face of the hone. It doesn't take much.

---

I do use magnification 20x and 60x but am not experienced enough to judge it right

I use sometimes tape , but on my practice razor I do without.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiFuMi

but what I also actually wonder is
do you just keep the blade flat or just concentrate slightly on the edge or so ?

---

Both. You must keep the blade flat in order to allow the spine to maintain the correct angle, but at the same time you must very slightly torque the blade so that pressure is concentrated on the edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Utopian

Both. You must keep the blade flat in order to allow the spine to maintain the correct angle, but at the same time you must very slightly torque the blade so that pressure is concentrated on the edge.

---

that is exactly what I was looking for
and what I tried :-)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ggestions.html this thread has some great pictures. There are several members in the Netherlands that have quite a bit of experience. It is also possible that you are experiencing slurry dulling. I think the solution to keep going and the edge gets refined well enough. I would not spend too much time with the hanging hair test, but concentrate on learning the loupe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RezDog

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ggestions.html this thread has some great pictures. There are several members in the Netherlands that have quite a bit of experience. It is also possible that you are experiencing slurry dulling. I think the solution to keep going and the edge gets refined well enough. I would not spend too much time with the hanging hair test, but concentrate on learning the loupe.

---

I am also thinking that the slurry dulls the edge
so that comes back to sharp later then ?

Yes. There is some debate as to whether or not slurry dulling exists, but it's pretty much irrelevant if you finish on water. That should bring the edge back if it was "lost."

ah , thanks
that is very important to know for me
I will do some test soon and find out

Because we are talking about stuff on a very small scale it is impossible to prove one way or another, but there is a school of thought, very common amongst coticule users, that slurry dulls the edge very slightly and then as it breaks down it then begins to polish it again. So this could follow along with what you are experiencing. utopian is absolutely correct in that if it is lost it will come back, with dilution of the slurry and even strokes until you are finishing on water. I do not have a relationship with a coticule. Most people that love them and use them often have a relationship with them.

I gave this some thought and I have a theory, it is more of a question to the more experienced honers here as it is a statement about your situation. The step between 3k and coti is quite big, could it be that the coti polished out the "saw teet" on the edge and therefore makes it appear as the bevel is lost. So after a bit of work on the coti the edge should be good to go...?

I don't have much experience with cuticles my self so my thoughts might be a bit off...

In about 2 years I will probably move to Amsterdam, so then I can help you... But hopefully you have figured this out by then :hmmm:

Jacke

I think it cannot be a problem
they also use Coticule to set bevel at a 1k level

For me, the key to keeping the blade flat on the stone, is elevating the elbow until the forearm is parallel to the stone. Once there, the elbow does not fluctuate on it's vertical axis. At first, this will feel a little stiff and mechanical, but with practice will become more relaxed and natural.

I will try that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackeHj

I gave this some thought and I have a theory, it is more of a question to the more experienced honers here as it is a statement about your situation. The step between 3k and coti is quite big, could it be that the coti polished out the "saw teet" on the edge and therefore makes it appear as the bevel is lost. So after a bit of work on the coti the edge should be good to go...?

I don't have much experience with cuticles my self so my thoughts might be a bit off...

In about 2 years I will probably move to Amsterdam, so then I can help you... But hopefully you have figured this out by then :hmmm:

Jacke

---

That's (kind of) what slurry dulling is supposed to be. Garnets are the cutting material in a coticule. And they're generally shaped like a do-decahedron if I remember right. So in that slurry you have a bunch of essentially garnet balls bouncing around that ding up the edge and make it feel a little less dull on a thick slurry.

But as Utopian said, if you're doing your dilutions properly by the time you're on plain water all that damage should be erased and you ought to be left with a smooth edge.

My question - are you sure the coticule is a good one? I ask this because my coticule was a devil to figure out. I have synthetic stones up to 8K grit, and even skipping utilizing my coticule with slurry it still took a comfortably shaving 8K edge and dropped it down to around 6k. It was also most uncomfortable to shave with. I finally got it to put a good edge on a razor, but it can not be used with any sort of diluticot/unicot method. It can only be used with thin oil as a finishing stone. I have to use synthetic stones or a natural progession for the middle grits then switch to the coticule.

I'm not sure if this will be any help, but I catalogued everything I tried before finally hitting pay dirt here:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-me-drink.html

I presume your Naniwa and King stones are full size, at least 2 1/2" wide. It is easy to keep most blades flat on a full size stone unless the blade has a pronounced smile. Honing a smiley blade is for experienced honers.

Because full size natural stones can be expensive, many people purchase smaller size stones or even irregularly shaped bouts. With experience, you can learn to hone on a 1" x 2" nagura, but for a novice, that is rather difficult to do.

When honing on any stone, and especially if you do have smaller sized stones, keep your larger muscle groups still (back, neck, shoulder, elbow) and perform movements with your finger, hand and wrist muscles over which you have far greater control. Even your breathing needs to be controlled. If necessary, place a towel, foam pad, etc. under your forearm to keep it steady. Think like a sniper trying to shoot a target 1/2 mile away. That is the kind of precision control you want over your razor so you will maintain a uniform contact angle and pressure throughout the length of the blade.

My Coticule is 20x5 cm . So large enough. It is indeed a difficult one. That I know already.