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been thinking about looking for a faster 8k (currently using a SS) as it seems i spend a lot of time on it removing the scratches from my 5k. read someones comment on the snow white saying they thought it made more difference for them than a 12k. not very much info (doesn't seem popular) for razors. any body have experience with it?
In my experience, if you are spending a lot of time on your 8k, something is wrong (and I've used the SS 8k coming off the SS 5k, and the Norton 8k coming off the Norton 4k a lot). I know that doesn't answer your question, but I do think you should reevaluate what you're doing with what you have before you try to fix it with another hone.
I have no trouble going 5-8K on the superstones. 5-8K is normally only 20 strokes at most.
Before you start looking at the 8K as been the problem have a good look at the 5K. It may well be that the 5K is acting very aggressively or is imparting a deeper scratch pattern than usual. Does it feel rubbery or chalky when you hone on it. If it has a chalky sensation just add a dab of dish soap to the water and see if the scratch pattern starts to get shallower.
I currently own and use the Nani Snow White 8K, usually go to it after the Nubatama Bamboo 5K or the Naniwa Gouken Hayabusa 4K.
I think we start to get quite a bit of polish at the 8K level and we can start to really see the scratch pattern left on our edge from previous hones.
As others have mentioned before I would look to a different 8K stone I would look at the work done earlier in your progression, if I have honed well up thru the 5K level and removed ALL the lower grit scratches it only takes a small amount of work on the Snow White to polish out the 4-5K work.
That was also true of the Norton 8K and the Naniwa Gouken Fuji 8K both of witch I own and have used.
When I was relatively new to honing it was easy for me to leave lower grit scratches and they would hide within the scratch pattern of the next hone in my progression, the 8K finish would reveal them and I would have to go back to a lower grit stone and re-hone until they were removed.
The Naniwa Snow White is a very capable 8K stone but many 8k stones will work just fine if I do my part getting the edge ready for them.
my problem with honing is that i have a hard time evaluating when i have removed the scratches from the previous grit. while I use the thumb pad test on the 1 and 5k (making the 1k able to shave leg hairs) the visual cue i look for on the 8k (with a 30x loupe) Is to get rid of the "glow" i can see on the apex when i hit it just right with light. This is what seems to take forever to get rid of. would that mean i am not getting the bevel completley set?
If you are looking straight down on the blade you should see nothing. Any light reflection, any sparkle means your bevel is not set in that area or chipping etc. Im no pro so I may be missing something but this is my experience tintin.
The way I can see what my scratch pattern is doing is I look straight down on the edge with my magnification, then I slowly tilt the razor to one side and you should be able to see the blade shine and also see any scratches. Then if I am on say, 4k and there are still some nasty scratches showing then back to say 1k with light strokes to remove or lessen the deep scratches then back to 4k and so on. Just my 2 cents Sir best of luck :D
I'd say that you are not doing enough on the 5k. Are you using a 3k before the 5k? If not, that will make your 5k work faster.
Out of curiosity what 1K stone are you using. And what is your full rotation.
It might be time to splash out on a 1K chosera/pro stone.
For my bevel setting I don't need magnification. I've never actually used magnification. I roll the razor edge up through a direct overhead light source. If your eyes are good and you know what to look for you can see instantly if it's not set. You will see dark and light on the cutting edge. When it is right you can roll that razor as much as you like there will be no dark or light parts on the cutting surface, In fact it's very hard to even make out the cutting edge at all.
I use the spine to tell me how deep a scratch pattern is, and if I need more work for the next stone. People don't like to hone without tape, but it's very important that you have a razor or two even if junkers so you can get the feel for what each stone does at a particular grit level. The wider area that the spine offers will give you more real estate to look at, roll through the light and examine. And you should be able to tell will a little practice when the scratches are removed. Then as you progress you will be able to feel it as you hone, then with more practice still you will be able to feel it across the blade as you hone. It's more than just learning the rock, It's learning to be accurate with your honing pressure, and edge placement as you hone. And learning to feel how much water is on the rock. The more spine you have on the rock the stronger this feeling is, honing with tape makes it much harder for me at least to feel. If I use tape I already have the feel for the rocks, and have a pretty good understanding of how much work a stone will need to do before I even go to inspect it.
I echo the sentiments of bluesman7.
If you are trying to jump straight from a 1K, or even a 2K, to your 5K, you will have a lot of work to do on the 5K. I do not like to go more than double the grit, so I go from 1K to 2K to 3K and then to 5K. If Naniwa had a 4K stone, I would go from 1K to 2K to 4K to 8K, but since they don't, I replace the 4K with both the 3K and 5K. You certainly don't have to go to all the intermediate steps like I do; you can still get the job done, but it will take more effort to get there.
ejmolitor37 gives great advice. Another way to insure your getting your scratch patterns out prior to moving up is to alternate your angle on each hone. Let's say if starting with the 1k to set the bevel your razor is at a 90 degree angle to the hone, your next stone 3k or 5k go at a 45 degree angle and keep alternating each stone change. It's real easy to tell when you have a 90 degree scratch when your honing at 45 degrees or vice versa. That's my new to honing 2 cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintin
I have been using the Original Snow White 8k for over a year now and it is a very nice stone, that leaves a nice almost stria less finish.
For years, I use a Norton 8k, until the Snow White, the (AKA IF-0001 Junpaku), there are 2 stones that some call the Snow White. If the 8k is your finish stone or you will be jumping off from the 8k to Naturals, then the Junpaku is a good investment $110.
But if going higher 12,16, 20K it does not matter how great the finish is if you wipe it out with the next stone.
You should be spending the majority, of your honing time on the bevel set and the next stone, 3, 4, or 5k to remove all the deep 1k stria. After that it should be downhill, polishing the bevels to get a super straight edge.
Set the bevel on your 1k then joint the edge and re-set the bevel with light stokes. This will reduce the height of the land of the stria and give you a much straighter, stronger edge. Try to get the edge as straight as possible on the 1k. A clean re-freshed stone, will re-cut a smoother finish bevel in a few 10-15 laps.
Here is a post with good micrographs of what a fully set bevel looks like, post 42, page 9, Photos 4 & 5 (upper right hand corner) show and edge that is close, (not fully set). Post 51, page 11, first photo, shows a fully set bevel.
(Second-try-honing)
Compare your bevels to the finished bevels in the photos at the various stones.
thanks for the advice everyone. i will try these things
i am using a SS 1,5 and 8. i am 99% sure my bevel is set correctly but i will reevaluate it again.
what would be the advantage of the chosera stonee?
I use Chosera 1k, 3k, and 5k then SP (SS) 8k and 12k. The Choseras have a nicer feel, stay flatter and possibly stay cleaner than the SS. But as far as the edges they produce there is not much difference IMO. I think that adding a 3k (Chosera or SS) will help you much more than changing to Choseras.
Or do a lot more with the 5k finishing with light pressure before moving to the 8k. I would also advise a lot of light pressure laps on the 1k before moving to the 5k.
The chosera is fast. And leaves a very shallow scratch pattern. It's also got a harder feeling than a superstone.
Saying that I was fully expecting you to say a non branded 1K stone. Because the scratch pattern a 1K superstone leaves is also pretty shallow. It just loads with swarf, and cuts a bit slower than a chosera. Not enough of a difference between the two to warrant an upgrade however because like bluesman7 has said you are missing the 3K and it sounds like you need it.
My own rotation is 1K chosera, 5,8,12K superstone, then onto the natural of the day. I also use a king 1K and can make the same 1-5K jump with that as the bevel setter. The difference is probably the time I have taken to learn that step, All of the work is done at 1K.
On a respectable edge I would expect to use the 1K without slurry, And I would be using no pressure at all. I just want to skim the faces and the edge. On a razor that needs work I will slurry up and do the work, but I always finish in the same way with those slurry free light strokes to skim on a final face. From that point on none of my stones will get slurries. Everything will be done on plain water and be using those very light face skimming stokes.
It sounds to me like you have 2 options. You get a 3K in the hopes it fixes the problems you have, Or you learn to be light and deft on the 1K. The 3K route is faster and needs less voodoo to get right. The other way will vastly improve your 1K edges, and increase the hit chance of good edges to bad in the long run. The problem been for that second route you have to be the sort of person that will sit and learn for a few hours at a time and be able to self correct.