How many passes on the naniwa stones

Good morning everyone. First post/first question so here goes...

I have been using naniwa specialty stones(5k,8k,12k) for honing my 6/8 Thiers Issard Throat Cutter. I have no problem getting a edge on it. My self taught routine in order is

40 passes on the 5K
80 passes on the 8K
120 passes on the 12K

Then hit it with a strop with the Dovo red paste on the one side, followed by the leather after.

Am i overdoing it with the stones? Should I reduce the passes down some. Am i overdoing it and just taking metal off for no reason?

Also, for my pre shave ritual, I strop the razor on the red paste side for 20 passes, then on the leather for 60+. Should I cut down on the passes on the paste side.

Thanks in advance for the tips and advise. Looking forward to the replies

From your description, it seems like your lowest grit is 5k? That is not at all the first stone to use in the progression. You need a 1k to set the bevel first. The 5k will take a very long time to do so.

As you go up the grits the number of passes should be decreasing not increasing. At 12k you are looking at 10 passes at most.

How do you monitor the progress of your honing?

The 12k does cut fast. If you've done your work up to 8k and don't intend to go beyond 12K, ten (MAYBE 15) passes is usually enough. When I use my 12k to bridge the gap between 8k and 20k, I restrict it about 5. When it comes to all grits, its done when its done. But I think you'll find that if you bring a proper 8k edge to the 12k, it won't need much. Just a few passes and you'll see a remarkable difference.

Thanks for the reply
Sorry but i forgot to add that i have a 1/3K combo stone. Not sure which make though.

To get my initial edge, i started off with them, ,first running across the thumb nail to get a feel for any bumps or nicks in the blade. Then using the arm hair shave test. Also played with using a magnifying glass to look at the bevel with a bright light.

I was under the assumption that the more passes with the lower grit stones, the more unnecessary wearing down would happen to the razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Throatcutter

Thanks for the reply
Sorry but i forgot to add that i have a 1/3K combo stone. Not sure which make though.

To get my initial edge, i started off with them, ,first running across the thumb nail to get a feel for any bumps or nicks in the blade. Then using the arm hair shave test. Also played with using a magnifying glass to look at the bevel with a bright light.

I was under the assumption that the more passes with the lower grit stones, the more unnecessary wearing down would happen to the razor.

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That's true that lower grit stones are wearing away the steel at a faster rate. However, once you set your bevel you will probably never have to put that razor to a 1 or 5k stone again. No matter how you try to achieve it, a certain amount of steel has to be removed to get the job done. But once there, your maintenance will not require drastic amounts of steel to be removed. The idea is to make the job easier in the begining by stripping away what needs to be quickly on lower grit stones then polishing the edge smooth on subsequent stones. Deep scratches will take forever to hone out on really high grit stones.

I do not have a set piece method of honing in that each razor is honed the same way with X number of strokes at each stage in the progression. Each razor has it's own characteristics so the number of strokes I use varies razor to razor and at each stage of the progression. It takes the number of strokes at each point in the progression to get me to the point of being satisfied be it 10 or 40 or whatever. I can't view honing as a paint by numbers proposition.

Bob

Depending on what I'm doing on the lower grit stones I'll do 25-50, then check with a loupe and repeat as necessary. When satisfied I move up to middle grit stones. 12-25 rounds and check with a loupe. Repeat as needed. Then on the high grit/finishing hones, 5-10 rounds, check with loupe. Repeat as needed until satisfied with what I see under the loupe. Pasted strops are treated like finishing hones. 5-10 rounds then...you guessed it, loupe! The exception to the rule is natural finishers which I almost treat like low grit hones because they tend to cut slow.

For reference, I start with the higher lap count then as I see the edge coming together I cut the lap count between loupe checks in half to sneak up on the edge without going far over.

The reason lower grit hones take more passes...at 1K I want to see a chip free edge with the bevel fully set and stria as shallow as I can make them, in that exact order, before I move on. This may require 75 passes, it may require 750. At the next phase, in my case 4K, All I want to see is the 1K stria gone, and the remaining 4K stria shallow as I can make them. This will require removing less steel from the blade. At 8K I want to see the same. No more 4K stria, shallow 8K stria. At each successive phase it takes less to erase the progressively shallower stria left behind by the previous hone.

The trend continues with pastes.

Yup, lots of good advice.

You need to do, what the edge needs.

First get yourself some good magnification, 60X is a good place to start and can be purchased from $2-20 on line. There are several threads on magnification. You can buy “better”, higher quality magnification, but until you understand what you are seeing, it really does not matter.

And once you do understand, then you just don’t need, to see all “that” much detail.

Here is an interesting thread on a new honer taking a razor from EBay find, repair and to honing. (Second Try at honing).

Post 42, page 9, Photos 4 & 5 (upper right hand corner) show and edge that is close, (not fully set). Post 51, page 11, first photo, shows a fully set bevel, probably the most important step in the whole post.

Edge repair work, is not honing, the edge much be repaired first (chipping or other edge damage) then, honed.

The beauty of this thread, it is a bit long, but it is real time honing from beginning to end, where the honer documented the bevels and edges at each step. During the process, he was coached on what to look for and what was happening at each step.

So, how many laps at X stone will vary wildly, depending on what need to be done to bring an edge to shaving. If you are just touching up an edge with no edge damage, it could be accomplished with just a few laps on the 12k. Assuming your stones are properly lapped and your technique is good.

You also may want to read the first 3 post in the Honing Forum, they are packed with tons of good background information.

Lastly, if you want to dramatically cut your learning curve, find a local mentor for some hand on coaching…
Enjoy

Best thing of all to master I believe is the use of pressure in your honing stroke. Most problems we see affecting edge quality are pressure related. Its easy to flex an extra hollow blade, miss covering the entire blade. Use one hand for a start, and halve your pressure. Just my view.

Really interesting info here. Great posts.

Throatcutter...... it sounds like you're at a similar level of experience as myself.

I have the same stones plus a 1k and 3k naniwa. My thinking was similar to yours, until I read this thread.

I've had a problem sometimes in not getting a good bevel set despite removing all the old material. I think the problem is caused by not easing off enough on pressure towards the end of using the 1k stone in particular.

For your info, I prefer to shave straight off the 12k Naniwa. I find a pasted strop does not add much for me. On an edge refresh on the 12k I hone under running water with stone in my hand and find that it takes about 20 to 40 laps to get to the point of the drag on the blade feeling nice and even and consistent with medium pressure. Then I do around 10 laps on a clean clean stone with as little pressure as possible.

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by mainaman

As you go up the grits the number of passes should be decreasing not increasing.
How do you monitor the progress of your honing?

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Are you sure? Shouldn't that be increasing? It takes more strokes on a high grit stone to get rid of the scratches that a few strokes on a coarser hone produce.

That is how I have always interpreted the explanation of the pyramid scheme.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...d_honing_guide

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

Are you sure? Shouldn't that be increasing? It takes a more strokes on a high grit stone to get rid of the scratches that a few strokes on a coarser hone produce.

That is how I have always interpreted the explanation of the pyramid scheme.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...d_honing_guide

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I do not see the connection here. Pyramids were meant to dial in the edge by going back and forth. With a progression that happens as one goes up the grit levels.
By the time one gets to the 12k stone there is very shallow scratch pattern to remove, provided the razor was properly honed on the lower grit hones.
Counting strokes is just not the most optimal way to go because not all razors are identical.

Whether you do a pyramid or not, as soon as you move up the grit ladder you effectively replace a coarser scratch pattern with a finer one to refine the edge. A few strokes on a coarser hone can leave relatively deep scratches that take more strokes on a finer hone to smooth them out IMHO. At least that is my experience and the way I finish my edges.

YMMV.

I followed Lynn's method with naniwas. Bevel to finish and just ten strokes 8 k followed by the same on 12 k and I can tell you now you won't be far of if done correctly . If I,m just of I will repeat ten 8 k same on 12 k . Repeat until I,m ��

Once I,m good to go at 12 k level then I will add 5 strokes on chromium oxide.

The short answer is as many as it takes. Shave test and see.

Thank you to everyone that has applied.

A wealth of knowledge on this forum