New japanese natural stone Shobu

Newly acquired Japanese Natural stone, described by Vendor as a Shobu-Asagi-Karusu-Tamamoku.

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I have added to my two other Japanese Natural stones (Ozuku Asagi and Wakasa prev described) with this Shobu. On one of the above it is shown half wet, so you get an idea of why the lengthy description. It 210 x 78 x 27 and is 1100 grams. It has one useable side. I have sealed it with numerous coats of Shellac. This stone was described as hard and very fine. It is not as hard as the Ozuku (Narrowly) but is extremely fine in particle size. I took a moderate amount of time to lap it, say 15ins as it was fairly well flat to start with. I used it just now on a Dovo Bismarck, as a test, just adding fifty or so strokes to an already sharp razor, and it shaved nicely. I had a look at the edge at 30x and is showing the typical kasumi finish you would expect, however it will benefit from a bit more time on the stone. This stone is different in feel and feedback to the other two jnats I have, if anything it is quieter in feel, maybe a tad more elasticity in it's surface. None the less I anticipate this one will work well on softer steel razors, and looks the goods for water only finishing, jumping from a 10k synthetic. So far so good, I like the prospects of this stone.

Something went wrong with pic 3 at the bottom. I tried to delete but couldn't.

Nice stones, I will be looking to get one of those in the later future. Enjoy the stones

Looks very clean, should make a very nice finisher when you learn how to maximize its potential. As you say, a bit more time on the stone should do well for your razor. I assume this will darken the kasumi somewhat. I would guess on pure water, you may get a very sharp edge that isn't very comfortable. Of course, this is all an assumption, judging by your description of hardness. I had a Shobu like that - hard, but not too hard, softer than Ohzuku (which can get ultra hard) and it did an excellent job at finishing razors on very light slurry. I would rarely get an edge I liked on pure water.

Tamamoku pattern is very pretty, I am looking for one to add to the collection, purely for its looks. :)

From Japanese Whetstone Glossary | TomoNagura.Com | Keith V. Johnson
Tamamoku: Circular Burls. This is a rare and beautiful Toishi pattern that emulates the figuring in Tamamoku cedar.

Thanks for the info. I will certainly try varying the slurry, I've heard others say light slurry works better than clear water. Those meanings in Keith Johnson glossary are very handy, as this jnat thing can get confusing. Cheers Bob.

I don't know if anything is hard and uniform that's harder than an ozuku at the hardest level. They are hard enough to be undesirable unless you are running through nagura (but you could do that on a $10 piece of jasper, which is several orders harder yet). I have had nakayama stones as hard, but none that ever felt that great and they were maybe a little more aggressive than the ozuku (they feel skippy and scratchy when they're like that).

I'm not a fan of shoubu that are too many notches off of 5-ish level, they seem to be a bit more skippy than something like a decent suita, and the surfaces fracture in strange ways under tools (not a problem for razors, though). That, however, looks like a very nice stone, and if it's just off of top hardness, it should be nice to use.

Is your stone showing kasumi finish with clear water laps, or is that from slurry/tomonagura?

Dave, when I bought the Ozuku Asagi I specifically wanted a hard plus stone. Not quite as unresponsive as Jasper...but a definite last stone finisher. It is just what I wanted and I have shaved off that edge and I'm happy with the extra level of comfort compared to say a Suehiro 20k. About this Shobu, it is very fine particle size, and it was characterised on Takeshi Aoki's scale at 8.8 which is a lv 5 on others scales. The test I did was just to feel the stone, to get an idea of how it felt through the blade, so I spent time on moderate slurry, looked under the loupe, checked again with light slurry, And again after some clear water. In a direct comparison to the harder Ozuku, the feel was different, I found it a little less hard, not much, but in my limited experiences there was a difference. I am going to, do another razor on it today, where I intend to go from a synthetic 5 k edge varying slurry and see if I can come up with a shaving edge. I do believe I will. But I don't have a set of nagura to use,(that is my next step).
This particular Shobu, is smooth under foot, no Skippy feel, and especially with thicker slurry, feels as creamy as any of my stones. It's place in my stone collection us unclear just yet, but with a misty slurry I reckon it will produce a nice edge. (as mentioned)
Remember though, for me, I am not so experienced with jnats yet, I'm feeling my way, but with several years of honing with synthetics under my belt I know how to hone. So I had an idea of what I wanted, and that was to try a variety of stones, with a view to getting finishing stones, so I went with amuch harder Ozuku, a Wakasa (also hard) and this Shobu. The Shobu being the most unpredictable of the three. So far, it's indeed different, but where it will end up, I'm not sure just yet. I won't be edge chasing with these, I'm awake as to what likely results are there, and I am so far enjoying the types of shaves naturals give. It's a learning experience at the moment, and as I said, I don't fully understand the intricacies of nagura use, but I'm getting there...thanks for your comments. Bob.

The stones I have been speaking of are in this picture below, together to give a meaningful comparison.

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Hopefully, comparing these, it might help when considering the likely place these stones take, from the very hard Ozuku to the Wakasa, then the Shobu.

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Every stone I have is different. I'm not sure I could tell any of them apart by the shaving edge, but I could sure tell which is which by the feel of the lapping. What aoki calls 8.8 should be plenty fine for razors, especially if the hardness is there to get clear water. I can't remember if I've ever had a hard shoubu, it is only the softer ones that I put tools on (lv 4 from takeshi kuroda). Their fracture lines are like what you'd expect if you took a carbide or diamond scribe and scraped it on glass. Not only does the scratch occur, but it fractures at the edge and becomes much larger than you'd expect. But that will never happen with a razor, and there was otherwise nothing wrong with those stones other than their softness. Every stone I have that I can finish a razor with, I can figure out a way to do it and get a good edge every time or very close. Some of the great stones pretty much, you rub a razor on them just about any way you want and they make a quality edge.

I have given up on nagura other than tomonagura on the harder stones (not because there's anything wrong with it, it just takes longer). I work a new razor on a washita only for the bevel set and then the final stone. That's it. It's fast and I have better consistency that way because the washita doesn't leave many surprises on the edge (the grooves are relatively wide and shallow) to clean up. I'm sure a nagura progression is fun, but in my experience, washita stones make better prefinishers. There's something about them. They are like the good medium natural stone that the mines in japan just can't quite seem to cough up. Responsive to technique, and either fast or relatively fine (depending on how you choose to use them) but gentle on the edge.

I have no experience with wakasa, but that one looks a lot like some stones from nakayama.

The ozuku looks gigantic!

I do not see the karasu in that Shobo. Is it in the layers below the surface?

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I have given up on nagura other than tomonagura on the harder stones (not because there's anything wrong with it, it just takes longer).

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I go to a fast Suita then Koma and tomonagura on the finishing stone and done.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I go to a fast Suita then Koma and tomonagura on the finishing stone and done.

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I'm doing the same and am finding very good edges this way.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not see the karasu in that Shobo. Is it in the layers below the surface?

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I was scrolling down to the bottom of this thread to say the same thing.

Thanks fellas for the input. As mentioned, my experience with jnats is limited, so I am taking things in, and slowly I will get a good handle on them. I wanted to get a variety of stones to build up that knowledge. I'm coming from using the Suehiro 20k as my finishing stone, so a lot of adjustments are needed for me to adapt to this method. I would have liked to get a Nakayama but they are really costly and being new I don't want to make a judgement on them at this stage. I'll take things slowly, and listen to get the best out of these stones. I can say I have shaved off the Ozuku and Wakasa and both are keen, just about what you would expect from a 12k synthetic that maybe had a few laps of a pasted strop, slightly mellowed. I am going to try an edge from the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k put onto this Shobu. I know it sounds back to front, but those who have had some discomfort from the SG 20 edge, might get a very sharp, but more comfortable shave. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not see the karasu in that Shobo. Is it in the layers below the surface?

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I think karasu often exists only in the layers of text in a listing, and not in the stones.

But as long as the price is reasonable, it's not that big of an offense. It just seems to be the trend right now with the vendors. Dark brown/greenish "kiita" stones, karasu stones with one mark on them, or a pattern that doesn't quite match, renge that you can't see. As long as it's not charged for, it's relatively innocent aside from being an improper label (Just like a maruka stamp on a $150 stone that would be $150 without it). It does put a fine fellow like Bobski in the crosshairs of some folks for no good reason, though - he's just telling us what the dealer listed.

I'll be completely honest in saying that I never really knew what Karasu meant, literally until I read Keith Johnson's glossary of terms re all things jnat. Having said that and looking at my Shobu I can see where it has semblances of these Crows against a sky type pattern, and the Burls related to the Tamamoku pattern so I don't believe The vendor was being at all deceitful. If you look at a painting of a hay stack in France in the 19th century, who would not in fact believe they were looking at a Monet....lol.
So, to be fair to the vendor Takeshi Aoki, this stone when wet, and freshly given some fig 8's prior to work, it does remind me of the Karasu description. it is completely different to the Ozuku and Wakasa, with one mention that the Wakasa resembled a Nakayama! Whack a Maruka stamp on its side and it's worth thousands. In jest surely gents. Last evening I took a razor and took the edge off it on the corner of a stone, re set the bevel and went to a 5k Naniwa. I spent 15 minutes on the Wakasa with slurry which I allowed to dry out, then I gave it three or so minutes (I don't count strokes) on this confounding Shobu, with only a hint of slurry. It is just after 7am here in Eastern Australia, and I enjoyed a very satisfying shave, a surprisingly better shave than I had gotten on any of the jnats, used alone. So whether or not the Crows are flying here or maybe they are Kookaburras, the end result was that I got a good shave happening from a nice stone. I swear some people have bragged about the title of Koppa, as a selling point, until they found out what it really meant.
There is much to be learned on this topic, but this Shobu is an excellent honing stone for razors. That is the only truth that matters.

Karasu is generally pretty much the pattern you see on gray and light brown stones, but even in that case, any black on those stones has been stretched. There is a stone on etsy with one spot, and that is apparently karasu now.

Your last comment nails it, it only matters that the stone is excellent for honing.

re: the maruka stamp, at least that now appears to be "slap a stamp on it and it will be worth hundreds!!" :)

It's like diamonds. If debeers stopped dominating markets, e color 1 carat diamonds would probably be a hundred dollars. The flawless genuine diamonds of any size would still be worth a whole lot of money. The diluting of the maruka stamp has gotten rid of the ridiculous notion that stones with a bunch of flaws should be worth several thousand dollars. Some people probably got taken for a ride during the transition where all of the sudden stones got stamped. But the truly rare stones of perfect uniformity, good size and perfect shape with good cutting characteristics - they'll always be high dollar.

Unless someone figures out how to print them someday with a 3d printer.

Here's a couple of karasu. You can see where the idea came from, crow wings against a gray sky. I've posted a lot of karasu on the 'Hone of the Day' thread, search that thread for karasu and you should find many examples.

Cheers, Steve

Great looking stone Steve and thanks for your comments. When I first got this Shobu, it gave me a few heart palpations. On its surface when held to the light I was sure there were crystalline dots over it. I thought 'oh no' thinking it had bits of quartz or some other nasty things that razors don't like. It was fairly flat when I started lapping it. It's a hard stone and took a while till I was happy with it. The good thing, was that there were no nasties in the stones surface. It was as you can see quite dark, and I guess you could see a crow if you looked hard enough! That being said, I got a nice shave from it.
I guess as a jnat newbie, I was looking for some type of differentiation as to the feedback and results from the three stones pictured. I read somewhere that an odd Karasu can be 'scratchy'. Thankfully mine is fine. So the question stands. What does an atypical Shobu Asagi act like. Does Karasu have any meaning other than these confounded birds? Now after putting a couple of razors on all three of these jnats, I am very happy with the edges, the important thing.
I at first thought the Ozuku was the harder, and the Shobu the softer. Well, I now firmly believe the Wakasa is the hardest. I honed on it from ample slurry with a Atoma1200, right down to virtually dry, and no real change in the colour occurred. The Ozuku did, doing the same test, darken a little, so I finished I on plain water, which I don't think added anything to the edge, I subsequently found finishing with a misty slurry to be about right. I am glad that there are differences, what I should do to get the best out of them, only experience will tell me.
So, if you have any ideas on these I'm keen to hear them. I'm having fun that's for sure, and seriously happy no crystally stuff has re-appeared on the Shobu.
Cheers Bob.

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Originally Posted by bobski

I read somewhere that an odd Karasu can be 'scratchy'. What does an atypical Shobu Asagi act like. Does Karasu have any meaning other than these confounded birds? So, if you have any ideas on these I'm keen to hear them. I'm having fun that's for sure, and seriously happy no crystally stuff has re-appeared on the Shobu.

Cheers Bob.

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Hi Bob,

Karasu are from a lower layer and are in general harder stones, and harder stones can sometimes be scratchy on clear water. They're not always hard but the chances are a karasu is harder than say a yellow kiita.

Many times the Japanese used terms from nature to describe the appearance of the stones. 'Karasu' means crow in Japanese, so no, it doesn't have any other meaning, it's describing an appearance like kiita (yellow board), yake (sunrise/sunset), momji (maple leaf), renge (lotus), mokume (wood grain) etc.

You can't infer anything much from the appearance of a specific stone, at least as not as far as investing your hard earned dollars in a specific stone. Red and yellow stones tend to be softer than blue, gray, or dull yellow (egg) stones, karasu tend to be hard stones. But you can't bet on this info with respect to a specific stone. Descriptions by the seller are far more useful in specific cases. There's no telling what typical or atypical anything is like without the seller's description because there were so many layers, types, mines, etc all with different characteristics. We all try to make sense of the mines, skin, and layers and try to correlate attributes to them but it doesn't work very well. If you have a lot of experience with jnats, you'll begin to notice some commonalities related to mines and appearances, but still this info is not that reliable but does increase the odds of getting what you're looking for. For example, if I want a good hard, fine razor hone, choosing a bright yellow stone decreases my odds considerably. I should be looking for an asagi, a karasu, a dull yellow, or signs say on the skin that the stone is from a deeper layer.

I looked at the two Shobu asagi karasu stones on Takeshi's site, and can see no karasu in either. Sometimes he uses a 'template' or modifies another stone description and he may have overlooked the karasu part. He also apparently mixed some of the images up between the two stones, but that happens with most of the sellers at some point.

Anyway, hope this helps. You're on the way to a lot of fun sir!

Cheers, Steve

I wonder if sometimes these sellers are looking at the side of stone figuring that there is a karasu layer in there somewhere. I have seen them for sale like that before, but I don't know. I would not consider one faint black spot a Karasu either, but some do. I also see a some listed as phantom Karasu and I really can't see the phantom pattern either.

Shoubu patterning looks like a quilt in wood terms. I wonder if they call it karasu because they just don't have a term for it, but they don't want to say that it's plain. Of course, if something is perfectly even in color with no variation at all, depending on what it is, that can be worth a lot, too.

Maybe they're afraid of the term "blah". It's "blah" pattern.

I like the shoubu pattern, though it's not karasu, the quilt look is interesting. I've seen it in less fine ozuku stones, which I know most people don't see much of, but I had one from aoki that was gray and he said it was for tools. I thought I was going to get a razor stone for a steal, but it turned out he was exactly correct. It had that pattern, and it turned out to be a wonderful practical tool stone - the kind where you can sit down on a bench to cut a few rows of half blind dovetails and do nothing other than rub your chisel on the finish stone from time to time.

Thanks Steve, one of the Shobu Karasu's on Takeshi's site is mine. It has stayed on the site as out of stock. It's easy to differentiate as mine is 1104 grams. You will see its hardness is at 8.8 and particles size at 9, so its as you mentioned a hard stone. I bought all three from him, and I've only had good edges thus far, and that will improve as my skills in using them improves. The Karasu thing isn't an issue for me, but it's hardness and particle size does, as that is what gets me good finishing. thing is with all three of the stones I asked for hard finishers, and that's what I got. he tested them with razors personally, and the guarantee of if its' not what you want, then money back is hard to beat. True these three stones are not bargain basement stones. The Karasu was the smallest, and it's 210 x 78 x 28-30 at 1104 grams. The other two are double side and the Ozuku is 1.6 kg and 212 x 80 x 38, so with two sides and size like that I am getting a lot of stone for the money. But if they aren't good razor hones size means nothing.
I wanted to be clear though, that the vendor in this case, gave me every option to return any of these stones if I wasn't happy, he even tested two different razors on each of them to be certain they were what I was asking for. I'm not saying that to soothe my ego for making an error in the purchase, I just remember back to buying a 8 x 3 inch select grade Coticule for $400 USD and I couldn't get any edge at all from it or the other three I ended up buying and getting nowhere with, so to get good edges off stones I only tried two or three times, suggests that with use they will only improve.

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Originally Posted by bobski

I at first thought the Ozuku was the harder, and the Shobu the softer. Well, I now firmly believe the Wakasa is the hardest.

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Just to throw a spanner in the works, your test may not be related to hardness at all. It could simply mean the Wakasa has less cutting strength.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Thanks Steve, one of the Shobu Karasu's on Takeshi's site is mine. It has stayed on the site as out of stock. It's easy to differentiate as mine is 1104 grams. You will see its hardness is at 8.8 and particles size at 9, so its as you mentioned a hard stone. I bought all three from him, and I've only had good edges thus far, and that will improve as my skills in using them improves. The Karasu thing isn't an issue for me, but it's hardness and particle size does, as that is what gets me good finishing. thing is with all three of the stones I asked for hard finishers, and that's what I got. he tested them with razors personally, and the guarantee of if its' not what you want, then money back is hard to beat. True these three stones are not bargain basement stones. The Karasu was the smallest, and it's 210 x 78 x 28-30 at 1104 grams. The other two are double side and the Ozuku is 1.6 kg and 212 x 80 x 38, so with two sides and size like that I am getting a lot of stone for the money. But if they aren't good razor hones size means nothing.
I wanted to be clear though, that the vendor in this case, gave me every option to return any of these stones if I wasn't happy, he even tested two different razors on each of them to be certain they were what I was asking for. I'm not saying that to soothe my ego for making an error in the purchase, I just remember back to buying a 8 x 3 inch select grade Coticule for $400 USD and I couldn't get any edge at all from it or the other three I ended up buying and getting nowhere with, so to get good edges off stones I only tried two or three times, suggests that with use they will only improve.

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Tamamoku is a good description more than Karasu (not trying to beat a dead horse, I think you paid a fair market price for the stone regardless of pattern, so it's not important what it says it is). It looks like a good stone, and anything that aoki calls particle 9 will finish a razor quite well as long as it's not billowy soft (which it isn't). Plus your stone has a nice shape. At any rate, tamamoku is a good description, and given that it came from Aoki in the first place, there's really no question that I've ever seen of whether or not you're getting what you pay for. Aoki is very fair and honest in what I've gotten. I think I bought three stones from him just to get a handle on what his hardness and fineness numbers equate to. Sort of an expensive way to answer a question that I really didn't need the answer to.

And you are 100% correct, it is going to be miles ahead of just about every coticule on the planet (I have had one coticule that was incredibly fine, but a lot that turned out to be less fine and require a whole lot more touch than the seller disclosed). You're going to get a shaving edge with your stone pretty much if you rub the razor on it, even if you use pressure by accident. Touch will just make it even better.

It's touch I now need to develop, as all three are different propositions. But the good thing is I haven't had one razor that's turned out bad. I've gotten three pass shaves off all my attempts so far, and if a razor works against the grain it has to be reasonably sharp. I used the Wakasa last night on a 7/8 TI, and used super light strokes for a good five minutes on a hint of slurry, and had an against the grain shave that was fine. So, I'm travelling today to see my kids and grandkids, so I won't have my jnats to play with, for four days......withdrawals. Oh I do have a barber hone sized cnat riverstone, In my wet pack if things get tough....lol

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Originally Posted by bobski

It's touch I now need to develop, as all three are different propositions. But the good thing is I haven't had one razor that's turned out bad. I've gotten three pass shaves off all my attempts so far, and if a razor works against the grain it has to be reasonably sharp. I used the Wakasa last night on a 7/8 TI, and used super light strokes for a good five minutes on a hint of slurry, and had an against the grain shave that was fine. So, I'm travelling today to see my kids and grandkids, so I won't have my jnats to play with, for four days......withdrawals. Oh I do have a barber hone sized cnat riverstone, In my wet pack if things get tough....lol

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You do know that traveler jnat hones are wonderful thing to explore. My current fave is a Shobu Type 100 from Alex.

Cheers, Steve