Thread: Shapton Stones, Shapton Pro vs Kuromako stones

Originally Posted by DaveW

Same particle size in those two stones, 3 microns (5k shapton and 8k norton).

Hey good to know I have not used my 8k Norton in awhile so I won't need to compare the 2. Thank you for the info

Originally Posted by DaveW

Same particle size in those two stones, 3 microns (5k shapton and 8k norton).

IIRC this comparison chart is where I got that info originally which after setting the bevel at 1k, led me to do pyramids with the superstones of 3k/5k and shave. Then 8k to finish. The 12k was 'guilding the lilly'. Did the same with the shapton pros and it seemed that this was equivalent to a norton 4/8 pyramid.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...tml#post446896

Lots of great info here! Thanks for all the great replies!
Cam

Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

I bought kuromaku hones off Amazon. Thus far after about 4 months of use I really enjoy them and have had no issues. 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k is what I have. I really like the polish from the 5k have not confirmed this but it seems dang close to what my Norton 8k would do. IMO great stones for the money.

There's a noticeable difference between the Shapton Kuromaku 5k and the Norton 8k - the Norton 8k is finer. I can't remember what blade it was, but I bounced around from the Norton 4k to the Shapton 5k, then to the Norton 8k to see what the score was.

But I'll also say that the shave off the Shapton 5k was surprisingly smooth when I tested that too. Which just hammers home that the 1k is 95% complete and every step there after is just a tiny bit closer.

I'm prone to agree with Dave - they're really good all around stones. I used the 1k to hone up some chisels and was fully prepared to be lapping out scratches and gouges. I checked after the hone was dry, all clear. If I tried that with my Norton 1k or Naniwa 800 I'd probably still be lapping the scratches out. They may not be quite as good for razors as Naniwa stones, but if you sharpen other things too they're about as good an "everything" hone as you can get.

BTW, regarding the naniwa superstones, choseras, and the shapton pros, they all required lapping when beginning a honing session. IOW, between the time you put them away, and the time you pick them up again, even if you put them away freshly lapped and flat, they move/change.

A friend told me it is because of the binder being a polymer. Subject to temperature and atmospheric changes. Whatever, I just know they aren't still flat when you go to hone.

Nortons OTOH, stay flat. They only need lapping when you use them and cause some wear. At least that is the way it is at my house.

And now I have to check my Kuromaku set to see if they're still flat...I haven't checked them since initial flattening.

Thats good to know Jimmy. Marshal lets us know your findings after you check!
Cam

Originally Posted by Marshal

There's a noticeable difference between the Shapton Kuromaku 5k and the Norton 8k - the Norton 8k is finer. I can't remember what blade it was, but I bounced around from the Norton 4k to the Shapton 5k, then to the Norton 8k to see what the score was.

There may be sort of an effect like the Kirby sales guys use. If you do most of the work with the shapton 5k and then do a little more work with the norton 8k, you might end up with the same effect if you do most of the work with the norton 8k and do a little more work with the shapton 5k, maybe the result is the same...not sure. (kirby sales guy reference because they always want you to vacuum with your vacuum and then vacuum with theirs so that they can claim the dirt that they pick up is due to your vacuum's poor performance. They never want to do it the other way around, though, because the second vacuum always picks up something).

I recall from my yonder years, before I had a reaction to medication earlier this year (the old harddrive info is still solid if you know what I mean) that those two are the same size, but I looked it up just to be sure. Norton calls theirs 3, shapton calls the 5k 2.94. There's a whole lot more to be told than the average grit size (binder, abrasive density, specific type of alumina - though that shouldn't matter as much as manufacturers claim it does, hardness - I guess that goes with binder, response of the stone to water, etc). I always felt like the shapton 5K was a very brash and strong cutting stone compared to a king 8k (never used the norton, but similar particle size and similar binder to king IIRC), despite the particle size being similar. Shapton claims to be very tight with their particle grade, so who knows if that means they don't have as many small stray particles.

I'm going to get myself confused talking about this stuff now, but back to your point about shaving - if you hone your razors 9 ways to sunday and the norton always comes out finer, it really doesn't matter what the paper charts say.

(I do also recall in the woodworking world, the shapton 5k would sometimes feel like it created an "off" edge, and once I went to oilstones and learned how to strop, I found out that it was just because some trash was still left on the edge from time to time, but on finer stones, it would usually come off on its own. Once you strop the trash off from the 5k shapton edge, it's awfully sharp. )

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

BTW, regarding the naniwa superstones, choseras, and the shapton pros, they all required lapping when beginning a honing session. IOW, between the time you put them away, and the time you pick them up again, even if you put them away freshly lapped and flat, they move/change.

A friend told me it is because of the binder being a polymer. Subject to temperature and atmospheric changes. Whatever, I just know they aren't still flat when you go to hone.

Nortons OTOH, stay flat. They only need lapping when you use them and cause some wear. At least that is the way it is at my house.

I never had the issue with the chos and shapton pros, but I did hear about it a lot with the superstones (I only ever had one of them, because they're a bit soft for multipurpose work with woodworking and razors).

My stones don't see much sun or humidity changes, though, which is why it was surprising that the chosera crazed all the time no matter what. The kuromakus never crazed for me, but my shop is high humidity and that may be why.

Originally Posted by DaveW

There may be sort of an effect like the Kirby sales guys use. If you do most of the work with the shapton 5k and then do a little more work with the norton 8k, you might end up with the same effect if you do most of the work with the norton 8k and do a little more work with the shapton 5k, maybe the result is the same...not sure. (kirby sales guy reference because they always want you to vacuum with your vacuum and then vacuum with theirs so that they can claim the dirt that they pick up is due to your vacuum's poor performance. They never want to do it the other way around, though, because the second vacuum always picks up something).

I recall from my yonder years, before I had a reaction to medication earlier this year (the old harddrive info is still solid if you know what I mean) that those two are the same size, but I looked it up just to be sure. Norton calls theirs 3, shapton calls the 5k 2.94. There's a whole lot more to be told than the average grit size (binder, abrasive density, specific type of alumina - though that shouldn't matter as much as manufacturers claim it does, hardness - I guess that goes with binder, response of the stone to water, etc). I always felt like the shapton 5K was a very brash and strong cutting stone compared to a king 8k (never used the norton, but similar particle size and similar binder to king IIRC), despite the particle size being similar. Shapton claims to be very tight with their particle grade, so who knows if that means they don't have as many small stray particles.

I'm going to get myself confused talking about this stuff now, but back to your point about shaving - if you hone your razors 9 ways to sunday and the norton always comes out finer, it really doesn't matter what the paper charts say.

(I do also recall in the woodworking world, the shapton 5k would sometimes feel like it created an "off" edge, and once I went to oilstones and learned how to strop, I found out that it was just because some trash was still left on the edge from time to time, but on finer stones, it would usually come off on its own. Once you strop the trash off from the 5k shapton edge, it's awfully sharp. )

I did a LOT of back and forths to make sure it wasn't a case of, "This vacuum got all the trash yours couldn't!" Comparing the 4K to the 5K I believe I was coming off of the Shapton 2K. I wanted an even base, and of course the 5K always came out finer.

Comparing the 5K to the 8K, I used the Norton 4K as my 0 point, and moved to the 5k until it stopped improving. Zero'd on the 4K. 8K until improvement stopped. 8K looks finer than I remember the 5K looking. But is this just my bias, or me wanting to feel like my 8K is actually 8K and not 5K?

Back to 4k. Hone up to 5K, check stria. Move on to 8K, check again. Looks finer. Back to 5K, looks less fine. Back and forth between the hones a few times to make sure the results match. To my eye the 8K was finer. But this is also subjective I suppose.

To Shapton's credit, it IS a pretty tough call because we're not talking about a night and day difference with mirror polish VS deep stria. It's near mirror polish to very near mirror polish. And when moving on to the 12K it really doesn't matter if you use their 5K or a Norton 8K as your previous step. It still takes fewer than 10 strokes to finalize a razor's edge. I could be calling it wrong, but I don't think it's entirely fair to say Norton 8K = 5K on particulate size alone. You already named all the other variables I could think of off the top of my head. And they certainly are aggressive cutters.