Shapton Stones, Shapton Pro vs Kuromako stones

Just getting acquainted with Shapton stones, are the Shapton Professional stones basically the same as the Japanese branded Kuromako stones? I read somewhere the shapton Pro's were formulated for a drier climate for the USA (stones cracking being too dry) I live in the south we got plenty of humidity! Anyway has anyone used the stones side by side? are they comparable? The Shapton Pro is close to twice the price
as the Kuromakos.
I sharpen straight razors and have a variety of hones, but always in search of the ultimate edge!
Cam

I believe they are the same, the difference being the US warranty. The older US version of the 2k and 5k Pro I have both have the ho na kuromaku stamp on them. The newer US versions do not.

I recommended the Pros to a friend who ended up getting the kuromaku versions of the 2k, 5k, and 8k, and he is very happy with them.

Stefan is very familiar with these stones also, so maybe he will post.

Cheers, Steve

I can't really verify it, but I heard the pro stones are reformulated a little bit to the US climate because the kuromaku stones had a bit of a crazing issue. But for all intents and purposes, same hone. I've got the kuromaku 1/2/5/12K set, they're pretty nice.

The same here: kuromaku 1/2/5/12K. But I do live in a humid climate, so even if the rumors are right - it makes no difference to me whatsoever.

I never noticed any significant difference between the two types, except that a 12k kuromaku is $56 in japan, and the 15k pro is more than double that here.

the kuromaku 1k is about 30 bucks in japan, the pro 1k about double that.

There is a distribution channel that the US stones come through, and there may be an agent before that who sells them to that distribution channel. Too many layers wanting a slice in the US.

The pros are my favorite overall synthetic stones (but that's for more than just razors), but I will buy any more that I get from japan.

Naniwa and Shapton both have some doosies that they tell us here in the US about why they do what they do (the comment that they were going to have to stop making the chosera because of the cost, so they thinned out the stones we get without much or any change in price. BUT, the choseras are still sold new in japan, for less than what we pay for the thinner stones).

All of the makers of stones pretty much package some kind of alumina in a binder, and then oversell what they have (nubatama? ohishi? shapton glasstones?). People in the woodworking world don't realize that those types of stones have existed for at least 125 years, but we get to see them here (by way of vintage red razor hones).

Anyway, the only stone I ever had a crazing problem with that was significant was a 10k chosera. Still seemed only a cosmetic problem.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Anyway, the only stone I ever had a crazing problem with that was significant was a 10k chosera. Still seemed only a cosmetic problem.

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I've got the crazing with a 5k, and a 10k Chosera. A friend had it with a 12k Shapton pro that was for the Japanese market, and is identical to the 15k pro for all intents and purposes. At least under a 45x microscope it was. I heard that the formula (binder) was suited to the climate in Japan, not in the USA, and that is why the 12k pro crazed. I don't know that there is anything to that. This was gotten 10 years ago at Japan Woodworker. Anyway, my 5k and 10k seem to work fine despite the crazing. Time will tell.

I bought kuromaku hones off Amazon. Thus far after about 4 months of use I really enjoy them and have had no issues. 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k is what I have. I really like the polish from the 5k have not confirmed this but it seems dang close to what my Norton 8k would do. IMO great stones for the money.

My 12k kuromaku crazed a little when I left it to dry on a sunny bench. Wasn't long before maintenance lapping removed it.
You'd be fine if your humidity is high .
It also became my habit to simply wipe & rebox after use never suffered from mould or any other issues in 6 years of use.

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

I bought kuromaku hones off Amazon. Thus far after about 4 months of use I really enjoy them and have had no issues. 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k is what I have. I really like the polish from the 5k have not confirmed this but it seems dang close to what my Norton 8k would do. IMO great stones for the money.

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Same particle size in those two stones, 3 microns (5k shapton and 8k norton).

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

My 12k kuromaku crazed a little when I left it to dry on a sunny bench. Wasn't long before maintenance lapping removed it.
You'd be fine if your humidity is high .
It also became my habit to simply wipe & rebox after use never suffered from mould or any other issues in 6 years of use.

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Direct sunlight is trouble for any of the resin stones (or at least potentially). Stu tierney told me that the instructions for chosera stones in japanese mentioned that they weren't to sit somewhere that they were exposed to sunlight. I thought it was kind of funny until mine crazed, though it never really caused any issues (I was using it for tools). It seemed like the craze was always a couple of layers ahead of me lapping it out.

The other thing about the cho is that if you don't soak it for a few minutes, it's a hard stone and "yeah, OK, a stone" kind of feeling. You soak it and then it's like it's been greased.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Same particle size in those two stones, 3 microns (5k shapton and 8k norton).

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Hey good to know I have not used my 8k Norton in awhile so I won't need to compare the 2. Thank you for the info :)

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Same particle size in those two stones, 3 microns (5k shapton and 8k norton).

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IIRC this comparison chart is where I got that info originally which after setting the bevel at 1k, led me to do pyramids with the superstones of 3k/5k and shave. Then 8k to finish. The 12k was 'guilding the lilly'. Did the same with the shapton pros and it seemed that this was equivalent to a norton 4/8 pyramid.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...tml#post446896

Lots of great info here! Thanks for all the great replies!
Cam

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Originally Posted by ejmolitor37

I bought kuromaku hones off Amazon. Thus far after about 4 months of use I really enjoy them and have had no issues. 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k is what I have. I really like the polish from the 5k have not confirmed this but it seems dang close to what my Norton 8k would do. IMO great stones for the money.

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There's a noticeable difference between the Shapton Kuromaku 5k and the Norton 8k - the Norton 8k is finer. I can't remember what blade it was, but I bounced around from the Norton 4k to the Shapton 5k, then to the Norton 8k to see what the score was.

But I'll also say that the shave off the Shapton 5k was surprisingly smooth when I tested that too. Which just hammers home that the 1k is 95% complete and every step there after is just a tiny bit closer.

I'm prone to agree with Dave - they're really good all around stones. I used the 1k to hone up some chisels and was fully prepared to be lapping out scratches and gouges. I checked after the hone was dry, all clear. If I tried that with my Norton 1k or Naniwa 800 I'd probably still be lapping the scratches out. They may not be quite as good for razors as Naniwa stones, but if you sharpen other things too they're about as good an "everything" hone as you can get.

BTW, regarding the naniwa superstones, choseras, and the shapton pros, they all required lapping when beginning a honing session. IOW, between the time you put them away, and the time you pick them up again, even if you put them away freshly lapped and flat, they move/change.

A friend told me it is because of the binder being a polymer. Subject to temperature and atmospheric changes. Whatever, I just know they aren't still flat when you go to hone.

Nortons OTOH, stay flat. They only need lapping when you use them and cause some wear. At least that is the way it is at my house. :)

And now I have to check my Kuromaku set to see if they're still flat...I haven't checked them since initial flattening.

Thats good to know Jimmy. Marshal lets us know your findings after you check!
Cam

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Originally Posted by Marshal

There's a noticeable difference between the Shapton Kuromaku 5k and the Norton 8k - the Norton 8k is finer. I can't remember what blade it was, but I bounced around from the Norton 4k to the Shapton 5k, then to the Norton 8k to see what the score was.

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There may be sort of an effect like the Kirby sales guys use. If you do most of the work with the shapton 5k and then do a little more work with the norton 8k, you might end up with the same effect if you do most of the work with the norton 8k and do a little more work with the shapton 5k, maybe the result is the same...not sure. (kirby sales guy reference because they always want you to vacuum with your vacuum and then vacuum with theirs so that they can claim the dirt that they pick up is due to your vacuum's poor performance. They never want to do it the other way around, though, because the second vacuum always picks up something).

I recall from my yonder years, before I had a reaction to medication earlier this year (the old harddrive info is still solid if you know what I mean) that those two are the same size, but I looked it up just to be sure. Norton calls theirs 3, shapton calls the 5k 2.94. There's a whole lot more to be told than the average grit size (binder, abrasive density, specific type of alumina - though that shouldn't matter as much as manufacturers claim it does, hardness - I guess that goes with binder, response of the stone to water, etc). I always felt like the shapton 5K was a very brash and strong cutting stone compared to a king 8k (never used the norton, but similar particle size and similar binder to king IIRC), despite the particle size being similar. Shapton claims to be very tight with their particle grade, so who knows if that means they don't have as many small stray particles.

I'm going to get myself confused talking about this stuff now, but back to your point about shaving - if you hone your razors 9 ways to sunday and the norton always comes out finer, it really doesn't matter what the paper charts say.

(I do also recall in the woodworking world, the shapton 5k would sometimes feel like it created an "off" edge, and once I went to oilstones and learned how to strop, I found out that it was just because some trash was still left on the edge from time to time, but on finer stones, it would usually come off on its own. Once you strop the trash off from the 5k shapton edge, it's awfully sharp. )

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

BTW, regarding the naniwa superstones, choseras, and the shapton pros, they all required lapping when beginning a honing session. IOW, between the time you put them away, and the time you pick them up again, even if you put them away freshly lapped and flat, they move/change.

A friend told me it is because of the binder being a polymer. Subject to temperature and atmospheric changes. Whatever, I just know they aren't still flat when you go to hone.

Nortons OTOH, stay flat. They only need lapping when you use them and cause some wear. At least that is the way it is at my house. :)

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I never had the issue with the chos and shapton pros, but I did hear about it a lot with the superstones (I only ever had one of them, because they're a bit soft for multipurpose work with woodworking and razors).

My stones don't see much sun or humidity changes, though, which is why it was surprising that the chosera crazed all the time no matter what. The kuromakus never crazed for me, but my shop is high humidity and that may be why.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

There may be sort of an effect like the Kirby sales guys use. If you do most of the work with the shapton 5k and then do a little more work with the norton 8k, you might end up with the same effect if you do most of the work with the norton 8k and do a little more work with the shapton 5k, maybe the result is the same...not sure. (kirby sales guy reference because they always want you to vacuum with your vacuum and then vacuum with theirs so that they can claim the dirt that they pick up is due to your vacuum's poor performance. They never want to do it the other way around, though, because the second vacuum always picks up something).

I recall from my yonder years, before I had a reaction to medication earlier this year (the old harddrive info is still solid if you know what I mean) that those two are the same size, but I looked it up just to be sure. Norton calls theirs 3, shapton calls the 5k 2.94. There's a whole lot more to be told than the average grit size (binder, abrasive density, specific type of alumina - though that shouldn't matter as much as manufacturers claim it does, hardness - I guess that goes with binder, response of the stone to water, etc). I always felt like the shapton 5K was a very brash and strong cutting stone compared to a king 8k (never used the norton, but similar particle size and similar binder to king IIRC), despite the particle size being similar. Shapton claims to be very tight with their particle grade, so who knows if that means they don't have as many small stray particles.

I'm going to get myself confused talking about this stuff now, but back to your point about shaving - if you hone your razors 9 ways to sunday and the norton always comes out finer, it really doesn't matter what the paper charts say.

(I do also recall in the woodworking world, the shapton 5k would sometimes feel like it created an "off" edge, and once I went to oilstones and learned how to strop, I found out that it was just because some trash was still left on the edge from time to time, but on finer stones, it would usually come off on its own. Once you strop the trash off from the 5k shapton edge, it's awfully sharp. )

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I did a LOT of back and forths to make sure it wasn't a case of, "This vacuum got all the trash yours couldn't!" Comparing the 4K to the 5K I believe I was coming off of the Shapton 2K. I wanted an even base, and of course the 5K always came out finer.

Comparing the 5K to the 8K, I used the Norton 4K as my 0 point, and moved to the 5k until it stopped improving. Zero'd on the 4K. 8K until improvement stopped. 8K looks finer than I remember the 5K looking. But is this just my bias, or me wanting to feel like my 8K is actually 8K and not 5K?

Back to 4k. Hone up to 5K, check stria. Move on to 8K, check again. Looks finer. Back to 5K, looks less fine. Back and forth between the hones a few times to make sure the results match. To my eye the 8K was finer. But this is also subjective I suppose.

To Shapton's credit, it IS a pretty tough call because we're not talking about a night and day difference with mirror polish VS deep stria. It's near mirror polish to very near mirror polish. And when moving on to the 12K it really doesn't matter if you use their 5K or a Norton 8K as your previous step. It still takes fewer than 10 strokes to finalize a razor's edge. I could be calling it wrong, but I don't think it's entirely fair to say Norton 8K = 5K on particulate size alone. You already named all the other variables I could think of off the top of my head. And they certainly are aggressive cutters.

To really throw a wrench in it, add in the coors ceramic stones (or what used to be coors at some point....had to stretch to remember the name spyderco) coming in at 3-5 microns. Same abrasive, massively different binder (the only ceramic stone that's actually ceramic).

I think the shapton cuts so brash that I would've called the king 8k finer (so, we're in the same boat). The abrasive density seems to be a little less in the king, there is some other stuff in there, and the binder is softer.

Just another illustration that the charts don't always tell us what we need to know.

....and the confusion continues!

and our grandfathers did it all with a barber hone and a piece of leather!:hmmm:

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Originally Posted by CamMorris

and our grandfathers did it all with a barber hone and a piece of leather!:hmmm:

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Still a perfectly acceptable method to this day, by the way. I have several blades in my shave rotation that are exactly that, touched up on a barber hone and stropped with plain old linen and leather.

I need a good strop too, another confusing topic Im sure! Thanks everyone for the great input!!

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Originally Posted by CamMorris

Thats good to know Jimmy. Marshal lets us know your findings after you check!
Cam

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Still flat.

Strops are easy. Go to Straight Razor Design and pick one that fits your budget. If you decide you don't like the material, you can buy a replacement piece of something else for a fraction of the cost of a new strop.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Still flat.

Strops are easy. Go to Straight Razor Design and pick one that fits your budget. If you decide you don't like the material, you can buy a replacement piece of something else for a fraction of the cost of a new strop.

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sounds good, would the 3"red latigo be a good choice?

I don't think there's such a thing as a bad choice when it comes to their strops. They all work well, the only difference at the end of the day will be the draw across the strop. That said, a 3" red latigo would be an excellent choice. My first strop was a Latigo leather. Not an SRD, but I've still got it and it works great. I can only imagine their would match or exceed the quality of the one I have.

And if you get curious about different leathers or secondary materials you can buy the 3" replacements. They'll screw right in.

For the secondary materials Premium Fabric is linen. All 3 options work similar, the difference is mostly feedback and cost. To me the poly webbing was too slick and zippy - it's like seat belt material. I haven't tried the felt but if you're into paste I understand this is primo stuff when it comes to taming an edge and making it smooth. Pastes tend to behave a bit different depending on the carrying medium. My linen secondary is unpasted and I'm perfectly content with it. I turned the poly web into a stand alone paste strop, I'm more happy with it as a paste medium than when it was a plain strop.

Thanks Marshal! sounds like sound advise! Much appreciated!
Cam

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Still flat.

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Interesting, thanks for checking. Other guys, Lynn, Glen, amongst others have also said they didn't have this phenomenon of going out of flat, while some others did. I guess it is an environmental issue ...... and NO, I'm not going Al Gore on y'all .......... :)

OK, received the Kuromaku's yesterday! (got the 1,5,8k) flattened the stones on some 500WD paper on glass, didn't take much as they were pretty flat out of the box (nice box ). Boy these things cut fast! haven't tried the 1K yet, the 5K cuts so fast I don't think I'll need the 1 K unless Ive got to remove some serious metal! after a few strokes on the 5K followed by 10-15 on the 8K the bevel was very shiney and clean, then polished it on my 12K" Tsushima Ocean Blue" then a few light strokes on a cr-ox leather paddle strop then stropped on the SRD red latigo strop and I'm in business!
Definite thumbs up from me on the Shapton Kuromaku stones! and I love the SRD Red Latogo strop!
Thanks to all for the wisdom and suggestions!

I am so impressed with the 1,5,8K stones (Kuromaku's) I ordered a 2k and a 12 k, that should make a good set!

Follow up! I received the 2k and 12K Kuromaku stones and have spent some time with them, very impressed with how fast these stone cut! The 12K does seem to load up pretty fast (black streaks on the stone) I guess its the carbon steel building up on the stone, and have to clean it frequently. The 12K imparts a very keen edge although I still think my translucent Arkansas is a finer cutting stone although much slower. Looking at the edge of the bevel with a 60x loupe, the T-Ark edge looks smoother and more polished, The 12K Kuromaku however get you there much faster.
Anyway for now I progress through the Kuromaku stones up too the 12K then switch over to the T-Ark for final polish then strop on cr-ox on leather then strop on smooth leather. Still learning as I go, all the videos are helpful but in the end it takes practice! I do find the 60X loupe a great help to "see what you're actually doing too the bevel!!
Thanks for all the help guys!

Good call on the 2k! You can go from 1k to 5k but I think the 2k makes for a much better transition.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Good call on the 2k! You can go from 1k to 5k but I think the 2k makes for a much better transition.

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yeah, I thought the 1 to 5 K was kinda big and the 2K wasnt that expensive!

And that is a wonderful thing. All the focus is one the finishers and they are by far more expensive, but most of your shaving edge comes from the cheaper low grit hones.