Thread: Arkansas Stones - Oil or water?

The razor I’ve been mostly playing on the stone is a Wester Bros,” Manganese Steel” is stamped on the tang. Finished off a naniwa 12k it’s a great shave. I’ve done a lot playing with finishing with this razor and I’m really familiar with it. Seemed like a logical place to start with the Arkansas.

The stone is a Dan’s. I got it used. It’s flat. When I got it it barely reflected light. I’ve spent a good deal of time rubbing the bevel of a chisel on it with water and glycerin as a lube. I’ve finished the razor maybe 7-8 times on this stone. I go back to the 12k and flatten the bevels, kill the edge on the side of the hone then bring it back with some slurry, with a loupe and some arm hair cutting I get the edge to where it normally is when I’m done with the 12k then head to the Arkansas.

Did the Black Ark ever finish a razor well? I don’t have any Dan’s stones only vintage Arks, but I think Dan makes a black hard Ark, not a Surgical Black stone. I know some of the newer dealers have different names for their arks.

How are your 12k edges? I would not finish with slurry, in fact on the 12k I finish the razor removing the previous stria and get a uniform stria pattern then resurface the stone with a diamond plate, removing all the swarf, then final finish hone the bevels with about 20-30 laps on a clean stone.

At this point the bevels should almost be stria free, and the edge super straight. After finishing on an Ark the bevel should have a hazy Jnat finish and the edge should be super straight.

Make sure the stone corners are smooth and not sharp or jagged, that can catch the edge of the razor on an X stroke. If the bevels are not smooth, stria free, with an even hazy sandblast finish, the problem is the stone finish or the corners.

You might try finishing the other side of the Ark to 600 grit Wet and Dry and see what kind of finish you get.

It’s a Dans hard black.

When I got the stone it was lightly burnished with low reflectivity. I finished a razor on it and it was pretty sharp but not comfortable. So I burnished it a bit with a chisel then tried again. A little less sharp but more comfortable. This has gone on for 7-8 cycles now. The edge has become very comfortable but it’s definitely not sharp enough for my taste.

My 12k edges are good, I’m having trouble improving on them so hence my growing interest in other stones/hones. The slurry I use at the beginning, as the edge gets close I rinse the hone. When edge is exactly where I want it I then clean the hone with running water and my palm to clean the swarf off then do 15-20 laps as perfect as I can with just enough pressure to control the stroke. Looking at the bevelas afterward usually leaves maybe 2-3 stria that look brighter than the rest of the stria. I can’t figure out what causes it but the resulting shaves are really comfortable.

I have tried different lubricant progressions and also just using the same lubricant throughout trying to finish on the Arkansas. The stria appear to be wider than an 8k but way less deep. The edge doesn’t appear to be as straight as it was off the 12k. I don’t really end up with a haze but definite stria.

The edges of the hone are radiused. I’ve run an extra hollow over the hone, dry, to make sure I didn’t have any rough spots. The hone sounds very smooth, nothing catches.

I’ll try fooling with the other side as well.

Thanks, Marty.

Yea, I suspect the stone.

Finish the bottom with 600 and see what that gets you, do not burnish try the 600 first. I get a dollar store steel cookie sheet , wet the paper and stick to the sheet, then on the floor using your body weight work the stone on the paper and a bit of soapy water.

You can grid mark the stone face with a colored sharpie, pencil will wash off. If you see high spots drop down in sand paper grit until you get flat.

I find removing a bit of the 12k face with a diamond plate the best way to resurface the face. I have used a scotch bright to remove swarf , but find removing a bit of the face produces a better final finish.

A burnished Ark should improve a 12k edge and make it straighter, It sounds to me a similar finish I get from a Lilly White Ark, which is a “Hard Ark” pre-finisher, but not a finisher. They can be improved, polishing to higher grits and burnishing, but not like Surgical Blacks and Translucent.

An Ark edge post 12k Super Stone should be a smooth, keen edge. Crisp is a good descriptor, different from a 12k edge, that I find harsh, but Chrome Oxide or CBN or lots of stropping can calm and smooth. An Ark edge is very different from a stropped or pasted 12k edge.

So I guess the only thing to do to figure out what have is to find its specific gravity? 2.5-2.6 sg or greater would qualify it as a “surgical” Black?

Originally Posted by jfk742

The razor I’ve been mostly playing on the stone is a Wester Bros,” Manganese Steel” is stamped on the tang. Finished off a naniwa 12k it’s a great shave. I’ve done a lot playing with finishing with this razor and I’m really familiar with it. Seemed like a logical place to start with the Arkansas.

The stone is a Dan’s. I got it used. It’s flat. When I got it it barely reflected light. I’ve spent a good deal of time rubbing the bevel of a chisel on it with water and glycerin as a lube. I’ve finished the razor maybe 7-8 times on this stone. I go back to the 12k and flatten the bevels, kill the edge on the side of the hone then bring it back with some slurry, with a loupe and some arm hair cutting I get the edge to where it normally is when I’m done with the 12k then head to the Arkansas.

Personally, I can't see any issues with your surface; it looks to be well-burnished, with radiused edges, etc. As Marty says, maybe that hard Ark is not capable of as fine a finish as a true SB or Translucent (though I've heard anecdotally that they can be). I guess a specific gravity test would tell.

Another possibility to try with a heavier grind that you don't mind experimenting on (I believe a Wester Bros. is more of a hollow ground IIRC) is this: pressure/torque. I have found that I can get away with quite a bit more edge torque on my very-fine surfaced SB and Trans Arks, as it is really doing more burnishing than true cutting. Seriously, I bear down on the edge to a degree that might shock some (on a beefy blade at any rate, which most of mine are). I have never had the slightest bit of edge deformation or bevel widening doing this (again with the disclaimer that I am only doing this on heavy grinds). Of course I gradually lighten up on the finishing x-strokes on WD-40. Of course all of this presupposes proper honing strokes so that one doesn't wreck an edged on these ultra-hard stones. But having said that, I throw in a little of every stroke on the arks: back and forths, big circles, x-strokes (more towards the end to even things out).

And before any guardians of "the proper techniques" start piling on, of course I would never do this on any other finisher, but this has been a true revelation and process of discovery for me on my Arks. Just another thing to try-let us know how it goes.

I visited Dan's this last fall and bought a stone that I am still having to learn.

Here is how they grade their stones.

Notice the color black is included in all grades.

https://www.danswhetstone.com/inform...ne-grades-101/

As best as I could measure the specific gravity is +/- 2.78. So as far as Dans grading is concerned, I’m well above the specified 2.5 for a fine finisher.

I ran a wade and butcher rattler grind over the stone. Through out honing I tested cutting arm hairs above the skin, I peaked out somewhere in the 200 lap area, then it plateaued. The edge looks fairly straight but I think I went too long or had a bad stroke. The middle and toe came in first and then the heal. Part of it is the wonky geometry the other part is my honing. The bevels look pretty good but not like a jnat finish. There are some errant scratches but nothing that ends in a chip.

The Sheffield definitely seems to like the stone better than the German steel.

Hopefully the test shave goes well but I don’t have my hopes up.