Disapointing JNat results (sharp but neither smooth nor clean)

Hello everybody! :)

Recently, I bought a JNat (Awasedo Shobu Asagi) and honed a couple of razors on it (lots of Solingen's, some Wade & Butcher's) by going thru the whole nagura progression (Botan=>Tenjho=>Merijho=>Koma=>Tomonagura). My Tomonagura is a Nakayama Tomae.
I honed (only edge leading) until I reached a feeling that I interpreted as slurry break down.
After this, I did 70-100 strops on my hanging strop.
In accordance with Keith V. Johnsons thoughts, I only stroped on clean leather (Juchten), but not on Chrox or something similar abrasive stuff.

The level of sharpness of all blades was good, but no mind-blowing results could be observed:
Solid HHT 4, so, no big difference from a regular Naniwa hone with Chrox / Metal Polish here.
But since I don't shave with hanging hair tests, these results were more than OK for my needs.

Sadly, the last three shaves with all three JNat honed razors were quite disapointing, since they were neither smooth nor clean.
In all three cases, the razors gave me quite harsh shaves while shaving with the grain.
Honestly, the shaves were tough jobs followed by unsatisfactory results. When I applied the after shave, my face turned into a towering inferno.
Surprisingly, in all three cases, the sharpness seemed to be almot unchanged after the shaves (still something like HHT 4).
Honestly, I get much better results with Cotis, Thuringians or even Naniwa Super Stones.

To cut a long story short: Any thought's how to fix it? ;-) :)

Shoubudani Asagi? Check this thread and see if it helps any:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...irst-jnat.html

Start around post 10 to get to the meaty parts.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Shoubudani Asagi?

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I guess, that "Shobu" means "Shobudani". I bought exactly this one:

Awasedo Shobu Asagi

Yea, looks like the same stone, so the information contained in that thread should be applicable. I would say first thing to assess is whether it has those black inclusions mentioned, and whether they're toxic or helpful to honing. Maybe hone a test blade up on your Naniwas and try pure water on the Jnat to see what it does?

The little black specks aren't necessarily bad - mine has some that look the same, but it makes a sharp smooth edge, not an uncomfortable one.

That sounds rough and it's even more painful to have spent all that money and still not get a good edge.

I would suggest that (if you haven't already) you go back and read through all of the JNat honing posts to see if you are missing something. Often it's just one slight tweak to your process to get you where you need to be.

I've observed your result several times, it isn't uncommon I guess. After all, it is difficult to judge an edge so small, just by the honing feeling.... well, for me that is. Do you use any magnification? How do you make sure you do a good job at removing previous stria, before moving on to the next stone (nagura)? Botan can be quite rough. Mejiro and Tenjyou can be quite similar. Koma, I won't comment on just yet, but I read they start off quite rough, so you must make sure you really max it out and allow it to really do it's magic (this is just theory)... so there is a lot of factors at play here, which only you can observe, since we don't really know your naturals.

Maybe the easiest thing to try is simply repeating the Tomo nagura for another round. Compare the shaves. Like so, if there is no improvement, you could step back to Mejiro, redo it, then redo Tomo.

The key is to find where you've missed in the progression.

Or maybe, that stone is just not able to deliver.. but this would be impossible to guess by the picture. It looks fine, from what I can see.

Do you live in Germany by the way?

I would experiment with how you are finishing and only use the jnat for finishing instead of progression until you get edge you like. I would test water, diamond plate slurry maybe, different tomo if you have any. I am new to jnat and all I have done so far is test the oozuku with just tomo for finishing and just water. I am liking the results with tomo finish best, so I will be testing the 3 stone nagura (no komo) to tomo later. Good luck getting the edge you want
All I do after honing my razor is 20 laps on leather after honing and then 50-100 before I shave like normal, I don't really use webbing or linen. I am going to be testing CrOx later but would just be using it to touch up razor if I don't want to break stones out (I always want to break stones out though so yea).

This thread probably would be better served in the honing section.

Do you have access to any form of magnification to assess the edge?
How was your tomonagura selected? Do you perceive it to be softer than the base stone?
Is there a reason why you did not finish on water?

Since you mentioned other hones, I first would suggest that you try your normal number of finishing strokes on a Naniwa 12k. I usually do 10-20 at most. See what that does on one of your edges to see if the issue is the finish or earlier in the progression.

If I was you, firstly i would figure out how fast it is, how soon the slurries turn dark.

It may require a lot more work with each nagura ?

Thank's a lot for the helpful input from all of you!!!

I inspected the bevel with a 30x magnifier and figured out that there were dozenz of tiny notches in the bevel :cry:.
I don't have any explanation for this observation, but this observation could be itself an explanation for the harsh shave. But I doub't that theese notches are the result of the wrong Tomo or something like this. IMHO, there's something fundamentally wrong.

I compared also the bevels to the bevels of the razors which I honed with the Naniwas.
The differences are quite hughe. The Naniwa bevels look much much keener to me. At the moment, I'm just not convinced that JNats can outperform Naniwas in terms of keeness and smoothness of shaves.

@ Srdjan: Ja, ich komme aus Deutschland. :)

And this is the problem with the HHT. Small notches on a saw-toothed edge can pop hairs but they won't make for a comfortable shave. If you are seeing those notches at 30x, then don't bother with my suggestion of trying the 12k. It sounds like the problem is earlier in the progression. Keep at it and you'll sort it out!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagura

I compared also the bevels to the bevels of the razors which I honed with the Naniwas.
The differences are quite hughe. The Naniwa bevels look much much keener to me.

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Have you tried your J-Nat after Naniwa to see if the edge degrades or improves?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagura

At the moment, I'm just not convinced that JNats can outperform Naniwas in terms of keeness and smoothness of shaves.

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It is entirely possible that your hone is not a razor finisher, or your tomonagura is not a good match.
Truly suitable razor-finishing Jnats are not common at all. Most of the stuff you see in shops is prepolishers really.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Have you tried your J-Nat after Naniwa to see if the edge degrades or improves?

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Without any doubt: The edge degraded. All razors were honed with the Naniwas before I tried the JNat. So, I can make the direct comparison.

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Originally Posted by Nagura

Without any doubt: The edge degraded. All razors were honed with the Naniwas before I tried the JNat. So, I can make the direct comparison.

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Yes, but your edges degraded after going up a full nagura progression if I understood correctly.

I suggest that you pick one razor that you know the best and bring in back up on whatever previous progression that you trust the most. Finish on the 12k and then strop and shave test it. After that, hone it again on just the base stone with water and then strop and shave test it again. If your base stone degrades the 12k edge, then Mainaman is correct and your hone is not a finisher.

If you find notches you should find out which stone caused them.
It could be the hone itself but could also be one of your slurry stones. Naguras too can have toxic inclusions and some lose some crumbs if you like from an unstable edge. I suggest you follow Utopians advice above. If the honzan is not the culprit follow the same procedure with the naguras to find out which one is to blame for your problems.

@Nagura you've got some good advice here, but if all fails and you want a second opinion, I am happy to help. You could send me your stone and a razor, I'll give it a shot at honing, and send it back. I am normally in Mannheim when in Germany.

Sadly though, my German language skills suck. I work there for about 6 months a year, and I work only in English. :(

Taking your stone to someone who can hone is good idea and can help you understand the stone more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

It is entirely possible that your hone is not a razor finisher, or your tomonagura is not a good match.
Truly suitable razor-finishing Jnats are not common at all. Most of the stuff you see in shops is prepolishers really.

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100% agree with this. A lot of stones can finish razors in the right hands, but probably a fraction of stones sold as razor stones (if you just look at sellers listings) are really in the top group.

There are certain sellers who do really do a thorough test of a stone before classifying it, but you will pay for that "grading".

If there is no way for you to coax the same type of sharpness out of the stone as you'd get on a nani 12k, then you're not getting the results you should. In my experience, a good stone will step up the sharpness a little bit (not in sharpness felt, but in the quality of the shave), but the smoothness of the shave should be much better. Never worse than a synthetic.

If you are very capable with synthetic followed by crox, I wouldn't expect natural stones to surpass that sharpness level, but a good razor stone used properly should get you in the ballpark but without any harshness or weepers.

You don't have a cheap microscope do you? Even the cheapest USB hand held high magnification scopes (about $12) will show you damage that I suspect you're getting (in the form of the edge having some tooth or shiny "danglers" that are the result of rogue particles damaging an edge. If the damage is uniform, then the stone is a prepolisher. If it's not uniform (e.g., a burnished looking bevel with random large scratches here and there), then it's just not a very good stone.

Also agree with no-nagura. Nagura can have rogue particles in them, too. Good ones don't.

Now who was that guy that kept saying

"You are going to be hard pressed to beat a good finish on the Naniwa SS 12K for any amount of money"


Damn smart fella,,

You know how to use the naniwa you have yet learned what the J-nat can or can't do

Naniwa 12k then light slurry off only the Shobudani work it, own it, and see what happens..

Branch out from there, that gives you a baseline

If your location is convenient to the US, I'd be glad to assess the stone(s) and problem razor if you like, for return postage.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now who was that guy that kept saying

"You are going to be hard pressed to beat a good finish on the Naniwa SS 12K for any amount of money"


Damn smart fella,,

You know how to use the naniwa you have yet learned what the J-nat can or can't do

Naniwa 12k then light slurry off only the Shobudani work it, own it, and see what happens..

Branch out from there, that gives you a baseline

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Are you implying that the Naniwa 12K can be seen as the gold standard for Jnats?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

Are you implying that the Naniwa 12K can be seen as the gold standard for Jnats?

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The Naniwa 12k is a competent razor finisher to which everyone has access. It's a good standard for razor hones, much better than 8k IMO.

Does it compare to the top tier jnats? Of course not. :)

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

Are you implying that the Naniwa 12K can be seen as the gold standard for Jnats?

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Nope

I stated exactly what I meant to,,, I didn't imply anything at all

"You are going to be hard pressed to beat a good finish on the Naniwa SS 12K for any amount of money"



Let me be more clear

To beat a good Naniwa 12k finish using a J-Nat you need to learn how to use a Razor quality J-nat..

No implication in the least, that is a hard cold fact... just as my sig line has said for years

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

The Naniwa 12k is a competent razor finisher to which everyone has access. It's a good standard for razor hones, much better than 8k IMO.

Does it compare to the top tier jnats? Of course not. :)

Cheers, Steve

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Not everyone has Naniwa stones. For the longest time I didn't even own a 12K. But I'm willing to wager most have an 8K somewhere be it Naniwa, Norton, King, or Shapton.

Besides, if your benchmark is a Naniwa 12K, Thuri, or razor quality Jnat you're going to be really disappointed in a lot of otherwise perfectly good rocks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagura

Thank's a lot for the helpful input from all of you!!!

I inspected the bevel with a 30x magnifier and figured out that there were dozenz of tiny notches in the bevel :cry:.
I don't have any explanation for this observation, but this observation could be itself an explanation for the harsh shave. But I doub't that theese notches are the result of the wrong Tomo or something like this. IMHO, there's something fundamentally wrong.

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You may be right that there is something wrong but you should test the stone as already recommended.

Bubbly steel is not uncommon on Sheffield wedges. The edge can degrade during the shave.
Another fault can be restored razors with pits in the bevel. They can drop out causing semicircular chips .
A combination of the two is a nightmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

,,,,,,,,,,,,

Besides, if your benchmark is a Naniwa 12K, Thuri, or razor quality Jnat you're going to be really disappointed in a lot of otherwise perfectly good rocks.

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My benchmark is the PHIG,,, enough said ! :beer2:

It has taken me several years to tweek JNATS to get acceptable edges, and it's a ever learning uphill battle but once a good JNAT/Tomo combo is found we normally never part with them.

I think we can settle on the fact that no matter what hone you use prior to finishing on your jnat, it must in itself give an excellent shaving edge. For me and many that is a Naniwa. For me it's my 10k. No jnat will improve the 10 or 12k synths that aren't good shaving edges already. I've had jnats (3) for 7 months or so, and in another 7 months I might be at a point where I have learnt enough on how to best use them to a level where I'd be happy to say that I've finally got it right. Each jnat is very different, and needs a different approach. I'm not comfortable getting nagura at present so I use diamond nagura and after seven months I get some nice shaves, but are they as good as they could be, no I don't think so. Owning or using a jnat doesn't grant you passage to the lazer razor sharp edge some claim to get. They take some learning, so be patient.

These threads sure can get interesting when the debate of best finisher for straight razor comes up :tameshigiri:

Jnats are no miracle hones but used at the right moment in your progression the will do a good job. Using them is no rocket science and not more difficult than using any other hone IMHO. I like them very much but have to confess I do not own a synthetic >5K other than barber hones. I started my journey into the perfect edge with a coticule and various Thuris. After that I started with Jnats, only from reputable vendors and have been lucky getting excellent edges with them, improving Thuri edges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christian1

These threads sure can get interesting when the debate of best finisher for straight razor comes up :tameshigiri:

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:soapbox:

:jedi:

:deadhorse:

I'm usually more interested in the hone type the topic was started about than any tangents that may arise. Sort of living vicariously through others since throwing down for one (or more) of every hone known to mankind isn't exactly a feasible prospect.

Exactly, Marshal.

Glen said it best: After 12K, light milky tomo slurry should be sufficient. I guess I neglected the fact that the edge was already at 12K. Going to Botan again at that stage would bring it back way down, sort of repeating the whole mid-range process and throwing in a whole bunch of new variables.

The trick will be to figure out when the stone is maxed out, as even Tomo will throw the edge down at first, and then bring it back up gradually.

I will have to say that in the past few years of using several different JNATS and following that rainbow to get to that killer edge and has been very interesting, IMHO just because it's a JNAT does not make it a quality razor hone as i believe Glen stated the magic is in the mud, JNATS by them self do work but when you add slurry whether it be from a diamond plate, asano nagura progression or just use a tomo slurry it's all different. When I started my progression was 1K, 4K, 8K and JNAT with a DN 1200 slurry and edges were good but not super keen then I started working with different amounts of slurry still using the Atoma plate and never really gave using tomo's much thought as the ones I had used seemed to do the same thing as the Atoma plate, so then after the JNAT I started palying with paste and sprays and felt using these really ramped up my edges but felt I was losing somthing in the JNAT edge by using a pasted strop at the end so back to just using a JNAT but this time I have been testing a Nakayama Kiita with several tested tomo's from the owner and yesterday was my best edge ever, my starting progression was the same but no DN slurry I used a pre finish tomo as marked by the owner and followed with a Kiita tomo and the edge was so smooth and keen and today the shave off it was grand.

So with all my rambling to me JNATS are different than say 1-12K synthetic honing as synthetics are a given and and the grit is known but with JNATS and what you choose to use with them like an asano progression, DN slurry, tomo slurry or just plaing water the end result is always goingto be different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nagura

Hello everybody! :)

Recently, I bought a JNat (Awasedo Shobu Asagi) and honed a couple of razors on it (lots of Solingen's, some Wade & Butcher's) by going thru the whole nagura progression (Botan=>Tenjho=>Merijho=>Koma=>Tomonagura). My Tomonagura is a Nakayama Tomae.
I honed (only edge leading) until I reached a feeling that I interpreted as slurry break down.
After this, I did 70-100 strops on my hanging strop.
In accordance with Keith V. Johnsons thoughts, I only stroped on clean leather (Juchten), but not on Chrox or something similar abrasive stuff.

The level of sharpness of all blades was good, but no mind-blowing results could be observed:
Solid HHT 4, so, no big difference from a regular Naniwa hone with Chrox / Metal Polish here.
But since I don't shave with hanging hair tests, these results were more than OK for my needs.

Sadly, the last three shaves with all three JNat honed razors were quite disapointing, since they were neither smooth nor clean.
In all three cases, the razors gave me quite harsh shaves while shaving with the grain.
Honestly, the shaves were tough jobs followed by unsatisfactory results. When I applied the after shave, my face turned into a towering inferno.
Surprisingly, in all three cases, the sharpness seemed to be almot unchanged after the shaves (still something like HHT 4).
Honestly, I get much better results with Cotis, Thuringians or even Naniwa Super Stones.

To cut a long story short: Any thought's how to fix it? ;-) :)

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In my opinion you are right on the cusp of finding the edges you want, but at this point there will always be a convergence of: your skill level and your stones and razors. Just these 3 factors can lead to an almost unlimited number of failure possibilities. First I would suggest that you stick with just one razor and one stone and devote yourself to this one pairing for a while. There is an old saying in Japan "hard steel soft stone, soft steel hard stone" and I have found this to be a decent guide byline. Your Soligen blades might work with this stone but not the Sheffield. Most fellows here have lots of stones to match up with their various razors but maxing out one combination is important.

Next I am dubious that the stone you bought is really a kamisori toishi razor stone. These monolithic plain gray stones are sold as good for almost anything, and they can be, but your face talks back to you if the shave is harsh and the tomato does not. Actual razor grade stones were and are the same stones that were used to hone surgery tools, scalpels and such that require an unquestioned keenness. A stone from a website that is advertised it along side an image of a sushi knife does not make it a razor stone. Only a small percentage of stones harvested from the mines near Kyoto were razor grade stones. The miners knew this, the barbers and laboratories did too.

Also the size of the stone you bought should be an indicator of the use that the stone was graded, cut, finished and marketed to the public for. At 190mm this is a tool or knife stone. At 70mm wide it was set up by the miners as a tool or knife stone. At 20mm thick, the same. Razor grade stones are only found in a few locations of the mines strata structure, and they were singled out and set aside by the miners on the spot, and most of the razor stones were cut up into smaller hand held hone sizes in the 150x60x12mm range.

The idea of using a Mikawa nagura progression is a system designed to overcome the lack of a razor grade stone that could or would be able to act solely on its own to hone a razor. This nagura system does work but you have to master and be devoted to it. Just like driving a car, it takes more than turning on the key and pushing the gas peddle. With Jnats you are not just buying an instant edge, you have to earn it. With synthetics you buy a known grit, with Jnats you have to adapt your skills more to meet the stone halfway.

I have found that spine leading strokes promote a feather edge that can look and act toothy or ragged under magnification. Circular strokes can really clean up the face of your bevels and polish them. Edge leading strokes creates a scenario where the cutting edge meets the stone first and any slurry including a slurry made of Nagura grit is the most potent in final edge development when used with edge leading strokes. Edge leading strokes with a fresh slurry can wear down a feather or tooth looking edge easier and quicker than spine leading strokes.

Also remember that the quality of the slurry is dependent upon the quality of the grit bound up on both the base and the nagura stone. If you have a medium grit base stone some of that particle will mix in with your super fine grit from the nagura, and vice versa. Ultra hard stones can mimic fine stones if because the grit remains bound up in the stone so only the very tips of the grit touch the steel. In a slurry with the grit rolling around any larger grit particles with have large effects on your steel. That is why you use a nagura progression with graded grits so you can plan on a step from one grit size to the next, but in a final tomonagura step we want only the finest grit with no large pieces so a faulty tomo or base stone can contribute grit and mess up your blades edge.

Some of this will help you, some of this will be argued but I wish you luck,

Alex Gilmore

I want to express my thanks to everyone in this thread again!
Many thoughts gave me a new perspective on the entire topic. But It's hard to answer all of them.

At this point I want to give an update to the topic:

I had a really good talk to Mr. Horie, the japanese seller in Germany who sold me the Shobudani.
He also explained a lot about JNats and their use.
After this, I honed three razors again that gave me a harsh shave during the first trials. Starting from the Naniwa 3K, I removed the notches first. Then, I applied the entire Nagura progression again and stayed much longer on Koma and Tomo. The first results were really great and gave me super sharp edges (without notches!) and super smooth shaves!

Actually, I don't know if this dramatic change was due to the different honing progression or rather due to another observation: After a couple of shaves, the surface of the Stone feels much more smoother now, rather like a fine Thuri. Even if I lapped the hone before use (DMT325 followed by fine wet sand paper), its surface seemed to be "broken in" again. Wheter or not it had to do with a break in or a different honing aproach (or both), I'm quite happy now.