Turkey Stone Research

Hello all,

I work at a historic site in Pennsylvania, and we're setting up an 18th Century woodworking shop. One of the things we'd like to demonstrate are period sharpening techniques, as there are few other sites who actually do this.

In our research, we've hit a wall: finding turkey stones. Almost every joiner's inventory from the period lists a "turkeystone", as well as the Pennsylvania Gazette, which has numerous ads from turkeystones.

Now I know that there were numerous stones which bore the name turkeystone, I believe they likely refer to the novaculite like chert from the south western Anatolia. Like these:
Attachment 278466


Now, does anyone know of a source of these?
I'd like to get an example, in part to use, but also to bring to a geologist for analysis. In theory, considering the commonality of these stones in the 18th century, there may be some left underground, and I'd like to try to find a modern source for them. (my current theory is that they might be mined as an onyx today, as it should be fairly similar in terms of silica content and grain)

Any help would be greatly appreciated, it's been fun to research and just reading posts here has been very helpful.

-Gabe

I was curious since I've never heard of these and when I googled them I found an old thread on this site that discusses Turkeys a bit. It doesn't give a modern source, but it has some interesting info.
Asking about turkey stones a few days for Thanksgiving...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ne-turkey.html

Hi Gabe;
Welcome to SRP. This may give you fuel for thought.. Elounda Online, Eloundaweb and travel guide to Elounda village, Crete, Greece It has been called by many names. There should be enough around to source some.
Mike

note: The stone darkens when loaded with oil.
https://i.imgur.com/evI48sQ.jpg

Cant help ya Gabe but i will say... welcome to SRP!

Modine,
What's the best way to find Elounda stones, are they different from just the normal Cretan stones which are commercially available?

Griffith Shaving carries them I believe.

Cheers, Steve

I bought one of the cretan stones shown above a couple of years ago, and then one of the darker more marked turkish oilstones. The former is a bit more coarse and the latter finer, but they are both fast cutting and if you put anything laminated on them, they'll shed particles like crazy. Solid steel razors and light pressure, maybe not so much, but I don't use them for that.

In Pennsylvania (where I am and where I grew up), I have never seen a turkish oilstone. It's common to find washitas around here, and depending on what part of the state, really common to find india stones left over since they were the favorite of machinsits, etc. If you're near Pittsburgh, you'll find leftovers from tool and die shops, but less along the lines of woodworking stuff that you'll find in Central PA.

That said, there are plenty of people in PA, antique dealers included, who use the term "turkey stone" for washitas. That includes very knowledgeable dealers who deal in 18th century stuff. There is some chance that older literature talking about turkey stones may be referring to washita stones.

The other thing common around here is cheap slate hones fitted to boxes as if they were nicer stones, and I think those were probably a matter of economic necessity for some. They're junk, though.

(as with anywhere else, you run across Coticules and other common commercial items from the 20th century - including eschers. But never a turkish oilstone that I can recall).

I haven't seen any new make fractured looking all black stone that is of the darker and finer type. the old texts refer to a light or white version and a darker version and state that both are fine as finishing hones but the latter is finer. In my tiny sample, the difference in fineness is fairly stark. Like 4k stone vs. 7k stone. But the dark turkish stones in good shape often go for a mint and really don't have historical use for razors. Holtzappfel referred to turkey stones as a favorite for really hard irons (since they're friable - arkansas stones are slower, but with modern niceties, we can slurry them and make them fast - a turkey stone is like that all the time with laminated tools).

Dave,

From the research I'v been able to do I'm fairly certain the mid 18th Century "Turkey Stones" were imported from overseas, as there are references to them being brought by boat from Europe.

I think the reason why so few exist in the US today is that Arkansas Novaculite, being domestic, cheaper, and of equal (or some would claim greater) quality that they simply priced out the imported stones. But that wouldn't seem to have begun in earnest until the 1820s/30s.

It's good to know about Turkeystones and laminated tools, we're going to making a set of laminated chisels and plane irons on site and if we can get our hands on a good stone it sounds like it'll be a joy to work with.

Thanks for your insight!

Before WWI, Crete was part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus, stones mined in Crete prior to this event would have been called Turkish oil stones. After WWI, Crete became part of Greece, so the Turkish name no longer applies.

The Cretan oil stone is novaculite.

If you are interested: Matt at Griffith Shaving Goods sells them. He is a great supplier. He also sells on eBay as Matt68, but prices are the same on the Griffith Shaving Goods web site. If you have questions, email Matt directly; he is good about responding.

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Originally Posted by Gchristyuscg

Modine,
What's the best way to find Elounda stones, are they different from just the normal Cretan stones which are commercially available?

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Hi Gabe;

Turkish Oil stones start out white and darken when soaked in oil. Sometimes referred to as “burnt Naxos” due to the mining process of emery. There are different grades depending on what performance characteristics you are looking for. I have worked only with vintage stone and have not tested the currently available Cretan stones on the market and would exercise caution in comparing any natural stone.

https://www.mindat.org/article.php/1...Mines+of+Naxos
Mike

I notice that the photo you have attached appears to come from the Razor Loves Stones site. I would suggest contacting Sebastian there, if you haven't done so already, as he has a lot of esoteric information as to the history of stone usage and so forth. Like the others have said, it comes from Crete, which was part of the Ottoman empire at the time. Another thing to bear in mind is how the stone might have been used. In the eastern Mediterranean, my understanding is that the traditional method is to charge the stone with milk-fat through a slow boiling process to fill in the imperfections. This also aids in darkening it and increases its translucency. After charging, the stone is used with olive oil. That being the case, I have my doubts that olive oil would have been used in 18th-century Pennsylvania. And the whaling industry didn't really kick in until the 19th century. So what would have been the honing medium used then? Perhaps your historical literature will provide a clue. I'd be curious to know.

They did have access to olive oil at the time, though they referred to it as sweet oil usually. This could, though, also refer to just about any vegetable oil from the period. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of good descriptions of what they used for a sharpening oil, as that was generally considered a trade secret. Thanks for the tip to ask Sebastian though, I'll do just that!

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Originally Posted by Gchristyuscg

They did have access to olive oil at the time, though they referred to it as sweet oil usually. This could, though, also refer to just about any vegetable oil from the period. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of good descriptions of what they used for a sharpening oil, as that was generally considered a trade secret. Thanks for the tip to ask Sebastian though, I'll do just that!

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In my neck of the woods (Southeast US), 'sweet oil' was sweet almond oil. My folks would use warm sweet oil for the kid's earaches. I never heard of any other oil being called that, but who knows?

Cheers, Steve

That's the modern convention, but in the 18th century there tended to be less standardization of terms. One favorite example we ran into recently with a recipe was: add as much flour as necessary to make a cake. They weren't always very specific in their descriptions.

Given the location and time period, olive oil was certainly the most predominant lubrication. Would have been the tail end of the extraction process, most of it being for consumption. I have one, but only got as far as lapping it flat. Might have to treat it with some extra virgin..

Olive oil in 18th century Pennsylvania? As an alternative, I would have thought some sort of animal fat or grease. Weren't some of the first petroleum oil fields located in Pennsylvania? But that comes much later...

It was certainly available, but expensive. Most cooking would use animal fats, but those don't stay liquid at room temperature usually, so not as good for lubrication.

From old literature that I have read, and what others here have said, the Washita came along in the 1800’s and was so much more consistent leaving a better edge that they pushed the turkey stone out of the market which was also know for cracks and inclusions. From what I remember reading from a geological survey in the late 1800’s the Washitas were actually more expensive (at that time) and everyone seemed to sell them but with all of these other natural stones in the America like the Labrador and fine sandstones they were replaced quickly by the Washita, Hard Arkansas, and India Oil Stones. So many were gone by the turn of the 20th century. Now maybe a turkey stone of another name is available, that I don’t know.

“The Turkey stone.—The Turkey stone is so well known, and has so long been the standard of excellence for whetstones, that these descriptions would not be complete without it. Hitherto....The veins of calcite injure the stone for sharpening fine-pointed instruments, since they mar the evenness of texture desirable, and render it liable to uneven wear. Altogether it does not seem that the Turkey stone would do such fine work as the Arkansas and Ouachita stones. It is much cheaper than the Arkansas stone, but not so “cheap as the Ouachita. Sometimes, however, Turkey stones are found without the calcite veins; these must be excellent stones, though not.so fine as the Arkansas nor so fast cutting as the Ouachita.”

Excerpt From
Annual Report of the Geological Survey of Arkansas ...
Geological Survey of Arkansas
This material may be protected by copyright.

FWIW, here are two pictures of a Turkey stone I acquired from a Turkish dealer, before and after the boiled milk treatment I mentioned above. Really a nice stone, with a feel and result similar to a translucent Arkansas. I've only used it with olive oil.

Attachment 278585Attachment 278586

According to the source below they came from the interior of Asia Minor (Turkey) and shipped to Smyrna (Izmir).

https://books.google.de/books?id=Nq4...smyrna&f=false

This source has it that they needed a slate or wooden backing:

https://theodora.com/encyclopedia/h2/hone.html

Here's some more:

OldTools Archive

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gchristyuscg

That's the modern convention, but in the 18th century there tended to be less standardization of terms. One favorite example we ran into recently with a recipe was: add as much flour as necessary to make a cake. They weren't always very specific in their descriptions.

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Yeah, people were not moving as much once they settled and they certainly didn't communicate the way we do now so that is understandable.
I guess a lot of the cooking was done by look/feel at the time as well. Everyone probably didn't have nice measuring cups and spoons. Like when you mix pancake batter, you can't always go by the box. That is pretty funny though.

You've gotten me interested in these Turkey stones, but it sounds like the good ones sell for a premium. I'll have to put that in the long list of "like to have" stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

FWIW, here are two pictures of a Turkey stone I acquired from a Turkish dealer, before and after the boiled milk treatment I mentioned above. Really a nice stone, with a feel and result similar to a translucent Arkansas. I've only used it with olive oil.

Attachment 278585Attachment 278586

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Brontosaurus,

Does the dealer happen to have any other stones available? And thank you for the info! I'd not yet seen a side by side comparison between ones which had been boiled and ones which hadn't, it's amazing the color change that happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gchristyuscg

Brontosaurus,

Does the dealer happen to have any other stones available? And thank you for the info! I'd not yet seen a side by side comparison between ones which had been boiled and ones which hadn't, it's amazing the color change that happens.

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Apparently, yes. Below is a link to the stone as offered. I think it may be from the same source as that offered by Griffith Shaving. In any case, you might contact Ertan (requin on the French forums), who runs the site as linked about the historical evolution of the "Turkey Stone" name, particularly in the 18th century rather than later. His claim as stated on the site, like the others, is that the "Levant" stone comes from Crete, but if there was another similar stone in Anatolia proper, he would certainly know about it. I have used another stone from Anatolia, but it is more of a sandstone. Great with knives at a more rudimentary stage, whereas the stone from Crete is a novaculite type as mentioned.

Pierre du Levant 170 x 70

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

In my neck of the woods (Southeast US), 'sweet oil' was sweet almond oil. My folks would use warm sweet oil for the kid's earaches. I never heard of any other oil being called that, but who knows?

Cheers, Steve

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Thank you for sharing this personal anecdote. Out of curiosity, I just looked up "sweet oil" in the 4th ed. (2005) of the Webster's New World Dictionary (Midwestern US bias), and here is the definition given there: "any mild, edible oil, as olive oil." Also, from the 9th ed. (2003) Chambers Dictionary (Scottish bias): "olive oil; rape-oil [canola oil in the US]; any oil of mild pleasant taste." Now, I wonder what Dr. Johnson might have called it, followed by Noah Webster.

Brontosaurus,

Where did you get the information to boil it in milk? Is there a period source for that treatment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

Olive oil in 18th century Pennsylvania? As an alternative, I would have thought some sort of animal fat or grease. Weren't some of the first petroleum oil fields located in Pennsylvania? But that comes much later...

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Oh, I am confused. I purchased mine from an elderly European Gent who said it was a "Turkish oil stone". From Turkey. He said they were treated or soaked in oil, although he didn't say what type. Doesn't smell of mineral oil at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gchristyuscg

Brontosaurus,

Where did you get the information to boil it in milk? Is there a period source for that treatment?

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I learned it from Ertan at Rasoir-Sabre, the Turkish dealer I mentioned. Not saying it was necessarily used in 18th-century Pennsylvania, but that it is a traditional treatment in the eastern Mediterranean, or where the stone comes from. Another way he recommends is to charge the stone with fat or grease taken from a boiled sheep's tail. As the stone apparently has calcite veins as a source of imperfections, I would think that charging it with milk-fat would be more complementary. And like said, I have tried it and it works quite well. PM me if you would like further details on the milk-fat charging process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grazor

Oh, I am confused. I purchased mine from an elderly European Gent who said it was a "Turkish oil stone". From Turkey. He said they were treated or soaked in oil, although he didn't say what type. Doesn't smell of mineral oil at all.

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Following his comment, you could soak it in either olive oil or light mineral oil. My impression is that mineral oil itself doesn't have a smell. Rather, it is often kerosene or another petrochemical ingredient as blended that does.