Beyond the coticule...or not.

Evening Gentlemen, I am an enthusiast who is finally getting the hang of putting a decent shaving edge on my straights. I am, however, trying to get to that next level of sharpness and it seems to be a bit elusive. My home honed razors are good enough for a nice shave but I am still missing that final crispness I have felt with razors others have honed for me. The razors I hone are finished on a coti. The razors I have sent away to be honed by more experienced honers seem to come back with a keener edge. I have been looking into purchasing a Naniwa 12K synthetic Super Stone. Will a 12K synthetic finish with a finer edge than a coti? Simply put, should I spend the money or do I already have what I need in my coti?

I would answer that and say yes a 12 k naniwas will bump up keenness after coticule. I have done this my self and it does work if your struggling to get that keenness with your coticule.

The shave may feel a little different . What I found works great is the 8 k and then 12 k after a coticule.

It depends on what edge you prefer.

A well done coticule edge can have a bar like feeling, Very smooth, buttery. A feeling of not having a sharp edge at all. Some people strive for this edge and hunt coticule to provide the ultimate in smoothness. Not all coticules are equal in this regard, and it can take a few rocks to find the one.

If you are after keeness then you fall into the other group of honers, who want an edge to feel more like a feather DE blade. The choice of rocks here is different. Naniwa 12K is a good place to start, others might be adding the 20K Suehiro Gokumyo or a well burnished Arkansas after the 12K to take it up even further. Then adding CBN/Diamond compounds on a strop before a final stropping.

Yes , a 12k will take you to the next level.
To move beyond that...a good Escher/ Thurigan, or Translucent or Black Arky.
But what actually brings any edge to its full potential is proper stropping, after honing. I do a progression of different strops, starting with a pasted strop of either CR/Ox, or lead, then three or four different leathers.

To me...the edge stops at the strop. It improves, or is destroyed at this point. It all depends on your abilities.

Try a CR/OX pasted strop after your Coti, u might be surprised how much it improves that edge.

BTW..Coties typically are around 8000 grt. And not all are good finishers, its a hit or miss kind of stone. I've got four or five of them, and only a couple can I shave off of, so I just use them in a natural stone progression.

Hope this helps.

Although some love the smoothness of a Coticule edge, the edge is not keen enough for my tough, fast growing beard. I am a senior citizen with a coarse, white beard.

My first finishing hone was a Naniwa 12K. Although it will produce a keen edge, the edge was not smooth enough for me. I have blue eyes and ruddy skin that will sunburn, windburn, and razor burn quite easily. Achieving an edge keen enough for my tough beard, yet smooth enough for my tender face is a challenge.

In order to get keen, yet smooth edges, I have tried several natural hones. They include a Chinese Guangxi, a Tsushima ocean blue, an Imperia La Roccia, a Greek Vermio, a Yellow Lake (LLyn Melynllyn) Welsh, an unusual Anchor Finishing (Cumberlandite) hone, and a surgical black Arkansas. Any of my stones will improve the keenness of a Coticule edge. My current favorites are the Vermio and Llyn Melynllyn as they produce a keen, smooth edge.

Some day, I hope to try a Escher/Thuringian and a JNat 5+. I also have heard good things about the Suihiro Gokumyo 20K synthetic.

Wow, I was expecting to have opened a can of worms with my original question and, surprisingly, that seems not to be the case. Three for three in agreement. Very cool. Ok, well I know where I need to go from here and that is to find a respectable 12K (or there-abouts) stone. Of course I can scour the web or the bay and the possibilities are limitless. I do, however, understand that natural stones have inherent variabilty within a specific quarry and what may be advertised as a particular grit may, in practice, respond differently. I am open to suggestions for where to look or even PMs on available stones that are cluttering members shelves. Please let me know what you know and if you are interested in selling or trading ( or a combination there of) for vintage straights then PM me. Thanks so much.

Four for four I guess. That last post snuck in while I was typing!

There are many hones over 10K that are on the market. I have one that will polish a plane iron to an amazing level of sharpness, but I am not happy with the shave from it. I also have a Naniwa 12K that produces a very nice edge. Many like the Shapton hones. Stick with known brands or you may wind up with amazing plane irons but not a great shave.

If you like using a coticule and are getting a decent edge off it, you have entered the realm of natural stones. Personally, I don't see the reason to move back to synthetic stones afterwards. I am one of those guys who finds a coticule edge to be very smooth, but not close enough, so I will either use a Welsh purple slate from the UK eBay seller or a red-pasted hanging strop afterwards to up the ante a little bit. 1k/3k Suehiro synth combo > coticule > purple Welsh slate generally gets me there.

I'm quite happy with my coticule edges. Took me a while to get there... I have a Vermio, and a very hard Cretan, and I can improve the keenness of my edges with them, but I don't care for the shave feel with those stones. I'll take the smoothness over the improved keenness anyday.

I am not an expert at all! BUT
My 3 finishers are a coticule (that is very very slow), 12k ss, and a thuringian. By hht they are all pretty close, unless I do a 0.5 micron diamond strop after the 12k ss, which gets scary sharp. I have tried the coti and the thuri either after an 8k ss or after the 8k ss + 12k ss. Not sure there is any improvement to do the 12k prior to the natural stones. probably a waste of time i.e. redundant. All of that said my most comfortable shaves are probably from coticule edges. I need more shaves to say that its true all of the time, of course. Now I want a japanese stone to try etc.

If you want a keener edge after maxing out on your coticule on water, here's a budget option before springing for another expensive stone.

Rinse off your stone, massage some talcum powder into the dry stone and do some thirty or so very light X-strokes. You can add a few drops of water if you don't like honing on a dry surface, but you don't have to.

Best regards,

Pieter

If I want additional polish after the Coticule, I usually go to the Arkansas True Hard (Hard Black or Translucent). Sometimes to the Zulu Grey. Once you go natural, stay natural.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

If you want a keener edge after maxing out on your coticule on water, here's a budget option before springing for another expensive stone.

Rinse off your stone, massage some talcum powder into the dry stone and do some thirty or so very light X-strokes. You can add a few drops of water if you don't like honing on a dry surface, but you don't have to.

Best regards,

Pieter

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Yes this is true, you can also use oil.

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

If you like using a coticule and are getting a decent edge off it, you have entered the realm of natural stones. Personally, I don't see the reason to move back to synthetic stones afterwards. I am one of those guys who finds a coticule edge to be very smooth, but not close enough, so I will either use a Welsh purple slate from the UK eBay seller or a red-pasted hanging strop afterwards to up the ante a little bit. 1k/3k Suehiro synth combo > coticule > purple Welsh slate generally gets me there.

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I was going to say Welsh slate it works really well I have one and it does provide a closer shave and for the price you carnt go wrong

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Originally Posted by Disburden

Yes this is true, you can also use oil.

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Does an oil residue remain? Can one complete clean off the oil?

I never have tried actual oil on a coticule, but there are water soluble options that clean off easily. You can use glycerin, Smith's Honing Solution, or Ballistol. Any of them can be diluted with water to adjust their viscosity and when you are done you simply rinse the hone with more water for complete removal.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

If you want a keener edge after maxing out on your coticule on water, here's a budget option before springing for another expensive stone.

Rinse off your stone, massage some talcum powder into the dry stone and do some thirty or so very light X-strokes. You can add a few drops of water if you don't like honing on a dry surface, but you don't have to.

Best regards,

Pieter

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That is something that I will have to try!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I never have tried actual oil on a coticule, but there are water soluble options that clean off easily. You can use glycerin, Smith's Honing Solution, or Ballistol. Any of them can be diluted with water to adjust their viscosity and when you are done you simply rinse the hone with more water for complete removal.

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Thanks, I have some Smith's and will give it a try.

I have used synthetic edges out to 16k, coticule and JNAT edges and then pasted edges and to be honest a coticule edge is nice but not quite keen enough for me and the 16k edge is a tad to surgical but does soften after a few stropping. My favorite edge so far is take my edge to a 12k NN then do a JNAT finish on just a hint of slurry then just to bump and soften the edge just a tad more I do just 10 laps of .5 CrOx and it seems to be about right, I honestly could get by without the CrOX but I think it ever so slightly softens and rounds the edge but I have so hard scientific proof just very comfortable shaves.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

That is something that I will have to try!

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In henk bos's article on coticules he says oil puts a fine edge with a cuticle only surpassed by talc water.

I've been using a soapy water in a spray bottle to bump up keenness but find that i get the edge too keen for my skin and have to do a few strokes on plain coti and water after the soapy water just to mellow it out some. I'm going to give the talcum water a go and see how that does.

I've been using WD 40 on my cotules with excellent results. It's so thin you can use slurry with it. This talc thing is something I've never seen before. My lapidary pal told me he uses talc for a final polish when tumbling stones for final finish. Got to try this!!!!

Without reading all the comments, try finishing on a Coticule completely DRY,
It's faaar sharper than with water imo and about just as smooth;

at least that's how it works for me

If I want a lesser keen edge I finish on water, if I want a very keen smooth edge I finish on a dry Coticule

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Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

Without reading all the comments, try finishing on a Coticule completely DRY,
It's faaar sharper than with water imo and about just as smooth;

at least that's how it works for me

If I want a lesser keen edge I finish on water, if I want a very keen smooth edge I finish on a dry Coticule

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Careful what you say about finishing on a dry coticule,people may think you are odd.I am odd,and was doing that before I read how wrong it was,but I still do it and keep quiet about it.Works for me.How about honing on a dished coticule?I don't do that dry,but when I use a dished stone, the edges are pretty good...I have been using a coticule for 6 years and like the edges more than my other finishers.

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Originally Posted by caccia

Careful what you say about finishing on a dry coticule,people may think you are odd.I am odd,and was doing that before I read how wrong it was,but I still do it and keep quiet about it.Works for me.How about honing on a dished coticule?I don't do that dry,but when I use a dished stone, the edges are pretty good...I have been using a coticule for 6 years and like the edges more than my other finishers.

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I am never one to agree with other people's "right" or "wrong". In the beginning I hadn't dared to use them dry, because the internet said not to do it and plenty hone connoisseurs cringed at honing dry. People still think it's odd, as you mentioned.

Talking to a couple of older pre-interent fellas, I was hinted to try them with oil or dry.

I also love to use my BBWs dry, they behave different and work much better for me this way and definitely serve an important purpose in my honing routine.

Btdubs, wanna feel keenness ? Finish on a BBW dry, it's not the smoothest shave, but has definitely been my sharpest!

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Originally Posted by caccia

Careful what you say about finishing on a dry coticule,people may think you are odd.I am odd,and was doing that before I read how wrong it was,but I still do it and keep quiet about it.Works for me.How about honing on a dished coticule?I don't do that dry,but when I use a dished stone, the edges are pretty good...I have been using a coticule for 6 years and like the edges more than my other finishers.

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I finish on my combo coticule dry sometimes, with water sometimes and with shaving lather sometimes. Seems to me these were used as barber hones at the convenience of the barber, who pulled it out of his/her pocket and just used it. When I use it to touch up an edge, I’m not creating a slurry or swarf, so who cares if the stone is dry? The key thing is to use a very light touch - weight of the blade.

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Originally Posted by caccia

How about honing on a dished coticule?I don't do that dry,but when I use a dished stone, the edges are pretty good.

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Just to clarify, when you mention a dished coticule, you are speaking of a stone surface that has been hollowed, or concave, rather than convex, correct?

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

Just to clarify, when you mention a dished coticule, you are speaking of a stone surface that has been hollowed, or concave, rather than convex, correct?

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Yes,concave,hollowed.

After my coticule, I will either go to my 12k Naniwa or my Ark Surgical Black. When using the Ark, I do 60 laps dry then 60 laps with running water. Really puts a fine polish on the blade and it shaves nice and smooth.

After my coticule I like to follow up with final finishing on my other coticule. :p Of all my razors though there is close to an even split of coticule edges and jnat edges.

While I love a good Coticule edge, I also love a good Thuringer / Escher edge

when my Coticule edge just doesn't give me the 100% I'm looking for I do go for a Thüringer, coming off the Coti it almost immediately starts "sticking" to the surface of the Thüringer on water, for me a must in knowing the shave will be a good one and it always delivers.

A rather fool proof method, more so than the Coticule in general


(Mine is a very dark Thüringer, I really like the edges)