Problems with Coticule and Dilucot

Hello,

Sorry for another coticule help post. But I wanted to explain my problems and ask for help. I have been trying to get an edge on this coticule for I think now at least two weeks. And I just cannot get any further than hht1 or maybe hht2, but mostly a rather weak hht1. If I try unicot I get edges that are quite nice, not what I get when stropping on a CrOx strop, but smoother and easily shaveable. But trying Dilucot only gets me to a pulling shave that ends up not too close.

So what I have been doing: Honing on slurry in various ways, circles, halfstrokes, but mostly the latter. I create some milky slurry and dilute down every few sets of halfstrokes, mostly by feel or when I feel like it. I can consistently get a slight violin on the hht after that. And I dulled the edge before, so that should not be from before. But then I just cannot refine the edge further. I don't know. I tried a power touchup as described on coticule.be and quite a few strokes on pure water, with very little pressure or even just balancing the razor. Or directly on water. Nothing got me further. But again, I can get an edge via unicot that is quite shaveable so my honing stroke is not totally off.

What I observed was that the bevel seems to be polished not up to the very edge, but a little bit below that. I have nice even scratch pattern up to maybe half a millimeter up to the edge and from there on a more chaotic pattern and sort of a matte finish. I then proceeded to check if my coticule was flat, and it was. It just has a super slight high spot in the middle that I created by using the slurry stone only on the ends of the hone. So I don't think that this would be a problem

So now some facts about the coticule it is a 150x40 mm (~6x1.5") new coticule from Ardennes-coticule. I don't know the vein, but regarding the hardness it seems in the middle. I can scratch it with my fingernail, but just a little bit. When honing on water it does not autoslurry, or at least it does not feel like it. But I normally rinse every 10 strokes, to ensure that. Oh and as it came from the factory, it had a slight convexity that I kept. By that I can hone a little more evenly (the hone wear is concentrated on a relatively small spot, so the toe and heel get even wear too).

Thank you in advance, I will be thankful for any tips.

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Originally Posted by Blunon

What I observed was that the bevel seems to be polished not up to the very edge, but a little bit below that. I have nice even scratch pattern up to maybe half a millimeter up to the edge and from there on a more chaotic pattern and sort of a matte finish.

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From what you said above I would hazard a guess that your bevel isn't set. After I'm sure the bevel is set, I get the most from my coticule coming off an 8k Norton.

I was gonna write the same, Benz.

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Originally Posted by Kees

I was gonna write the same, Benz.

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I bet if he drops down to a 4k Norton, then to 8k, and finish up on his coticule he'll have a very smooth shave.

This seems more like a honing issue rather than a hone topic.
Do you tape the spine during this honing?

Sounds as is the bevel is not set. If the bevel were set the scratch pattern would go all the way to the edge.

Proper bevel setting is 90% of the honing process. Until the bevel is properly set going any further is futile.........

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Originally Posted by Benz

From what you said above I would hazard a guess that your bevel isn't set. After I'm sure the bevel is set, I get the most from my coticule coming off an 8k Norton.

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Same here, I use mine a strictly a finisher, 50 super light laps on plain water gives me great edges

if you have obtained a hht 2 rub your coti with a hard shaving soap like a palmolive stick... this should bring your razor to hht 3 after 30 laps - (if yr bevel is set right of course) - this is what I do to get hht 4 on my Veinette coti

Thanks for all the answers so far.

I didn't think about my bevel as an issue, because just before I set it with dilucot and it got from not shaving anything to hht1. So I didn't think about that. But now I tried setting the bevel on a 4k I have, I don't know the brand, but this is finest grit I have. I hoped to cover the rest with the coticule. So I went back to the 1k until the bevel was set, then to the 4k, and then I went to the coticule with one rub of the slurry stone, did 30 laps or so and then another 50 with water only.
But still the only thing I could achieve was hht1. But this time I am absolutely sure the bevel is set. The 4k is even freshly lapped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

This seems more like a honing issue rather than a hone topic.
Do you tape the spine during this honing?

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No I didn't. And if it is a honing issue, then what could I do differently?

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Originally Posted by bartds

if you have obtained a hht 2 rub your coti with a hard shaving soap like a palmolive stick... this should bring your razor to hht 3 after 30 laps - (if yr bevel is set right of course) - this is what I do to get hht 4 on my Veinette coti

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I will try that. But I rarely get to hht2, so maybe this has to wait a bit haha.

Take a look in the thread. " My experience with a BBW"
THIS MAY HELP YOU GREATLY

A whole different approach.! Improved my Coti edges, dramatically.
The biggest problem with Coties, is that none two are the same. Finding the sweet stuff in any particular natural stone, is the fun part. The BBW that's attached to the Coti, wasn't just put there as a backer...use it, learn its purpose. Think outside the box..the magic will come.

Hi,
I am not that experienced honer but from what I understand your coti is slightly convex (in the middle the surface is slightly higher than at the ends/corners).
I think that’s your problem.
Following my guess:
When diluting on Coticule the is some presure applied to the razor which might flex it on a microscopic level and let it „match“ the slightly convex surface of the Coticule.
In the finishing phase the pressure to the razor is at its minimum, so no flexing happens, the very apex of the bevel never touches the hone.
When comming from the perfectly flat 8k the same storry, the absolut apex (on a microscopic level) never touches the hone.
When unicoting I guess your rise the razor by putting a tape on it which brings it to overcome the hone convexity and contact the hone by its apex.


Regards

Thanks for your answers so far.

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Originally Posted by Philipp78

Hi,
When diluting on Coticule the is some presure applied to the razor which might flex it on a microscopic level and let it „match“ the slightly convex surface of the Coticule.
In the finishing phase the pressure to the razor is at its minimum, so no flexing happens, the very apex of the bevel never touches the hone.
When comming from the perfectly flat 8k the same storry, the absolut apex (on a microscopic level) never touches the hone.
When unicoting I guess your rise the razor by putting a tape on it which brings it to overcome the hone convexity and contact the hone by its apex.
Regards

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The hone is even in the direction in which you hone. But you are right, the convexity could still pose a problem. I’m just hesitant to lap the hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by outback

Take a look in the thread. " My experience with a BBW"
THIS MAY HELP YOU GREATLY

A whole different approach.! Improved my Coti edges, dramatically.
The biggest problem with Coties, is that none two are the same. Finding the sweet stuff in any particular natural stone, is the fun part. The BBW that's attached to the Coti, wasn't just put there as a backer...use it, learn its purpose. Think outside the box..the magic will come.

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My coticule is backed with slate. But I also have a bbw for knives and such. Ironically I feel like the BBW is easier to work with than the coticule.
I will try honing dry this evening.


And I also have a general question: Is it possible that this coticule detoriates the edge? When I tried honing on the bbw and then went to the coticule, The blade undercut the water and after a bit of honing that wasn’t the case anymore. I just Honed on water only with very little pressure. Is it possible that the contact surface is so small that even the weight of the razor is too much?

Have you got a picture of your coticule.

If it was me I would make sure the coticule is flat. I use exactly same size as you I hold mine in my hand while honing. I,m sure if your shaving arm hair easily coming of milky slurry your bevel is set.

Your problem is a common problem with coticule s . Your not the only one and won’t be the last to experience tuggy edges .

I have used loads of coticule s Over the last ten years and I experienced tuggy edges for quite some time but as time went on I found I got some lovely dilucotted edges along with good stropping on flax natural linen then leather. The only thing I can say is I have not come a cross a coticule that I could not achieve hht 3 after stropping. Which for my thick stubble provided a descent shave but nothing special but not tuggy. I aim for hht 4 with fine hair and there is a difference.

I also found canvas that was to new or zippy kind of had no effect on my coticule edge where as good flax linen did make a difference. I experimented with lots of fabrics before leather and flax linen and the hemp linen on the back of dovo model of strop bumped the hht up a point and with out that my coticule edges just fell short.

My method start with bevel set shaving arm hair. Then I start with milky slurry normal pressure working heal to toe with circles all the way diluting one drop at a time not letting the slurry dry out or become thicker. Then when I get to misty slurry just keep on there for a while. Stop and strop linen and leather then I check hht . If it’s a good 3/4 I would test shave ?

You may like the shave if misty watery slurry if not go to water only for 50 strokes strop and probe hht for any improvement.

That all you can do . You can try a set of half strokes with pressure followed by 30 light x strokes strop and check hht for any improvement.

I love coticule and they have given me some great edges , just stick at I am sure your results will improve.

Well my frend , you have this issue , because most coticules are not razor finishers . In other words , they have to be manipulated , to finish a razor on them . Are they finishers - no , they are midle stones and at the begining of higher grit table
Now my opinion is that - take your razor with HHT 2 and make 40 laps on plain water .No presure at all .
After that make some slurry with your brush and your shaving soap , and put some dripping whet lather on the coticule .Make 20 strokes without presure . Put lather again and make another 20 .
look the edge - if it is not hh3 after 3 series on lather q you have to set the bevell again and hone throw the dilucot and final finishing with watter and with lather after that .
I have ouned in the past few coticules - 2 of them very food , still very small and very slow for my taste .
I have 3 synthetyc cotis , that on my opinion , are the best for finishing a razor .
It goes without sayng that the thuringians , Jnats and Suehiro 20 K are much better option for final finish on a razor .

I tell everyone starting on a coticule to go to at least an 8k then do some water only laps to finish then if you are happy with the edge take your coticule rubber and just rub a tiny slurry and I mean tiny amount then do some laps and dilute till water only and finish the same way then compare edges, as you get better you can start with a thicker slurry and work your way down to water only.

I believe the most intrigueing moment in the Dilucot , is when to pass from very milky slury on plain wtter and to stay long enought on plain watter for finishing .Just my opinion .

So...
I've honed a bit since my last post, and I may have some idea where my problems are coming from. When I come my coticule on slurry, or even my 4k, I can see the scratches evenly go up to the edge. But when I hone either on water or on light slurry, it seems like the area around the edge gets some chaotic scratches. If I look in the right direction (with respect to the light) I can see that the even scratches do not extend to the edge anymore. I think this could either come from my hone not being flat, but it is, apart from the convexity, or from some kind of slurrydulling. What do you think is more likely?
Also when I go to the stages with misty slurry, and I come from a dilution on the coticule, the coticule feels much more gritty than coming from the 4k, whatever that means.
Another strange thing is: I can set the bevel on the coticule, or at least I think: when dulling on glass, I can hone until I get a slight violin on the hht. Does this mean the bevel is set or still not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RusenBG

I believe the most intrigueing moment in the Dilucot , is when to pass from very milky slury on plain wtter and to stay long enought on plain watter for finishing .Just my opinion .

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Yes this is true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RusenBG

Well my frend , you have this issue , because most coticules are not razor finishers . In other words , they have to be manipulated , to finish a razor on them . Are they finishers - no , they are midle stones and at the begining of higher grit table
Now my opinion is that - take your razor with HHT 2 and make 40 laps on plain water .No presure at all .
After that make some slurry with your brush and your shaving soap , and put some dripping whet lather on the coticule .Make 20 strokes without presure . Put lather again and make another 20 .
look the edge - if it is not hh3 after 3 series on lather q you have to set the bevell again and hone throw the dilucot and final finishing with watter and with lather after that .
I have ouned in the past few coticules - 2 of them very food , still very small and very slow for my taste .
I have 3 synthetyc cotis , that on my opinion , are the best for finishing a razor .
It goes without sayng that the thuringians , Jnats and Suehiro 20 K are much better option for final finish on a razor .

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I once tried honing with lather, but at that time that didn't work out. Once I get to hht2, I will try that. The problem was that mostly I cannot even get close to a point where I would start worrying about getting the edge a little bit sharper. I can barely get a reasonably close shave.

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

Have you got a picture of your coticule.
If it was me I would make sure the coticule is flat. I use exactly same size as you I hold mine in my hand while honing. I,m sure if your shaving arm hair easily coming of milky slurry your bevel is set.
Your problem is a common problem with coticule s . Your not the only one and won’t be the last to experience tuggy edges .
I have used loads of coticule s Over the last ten years and I experienced tuggy edges for quite some time but as time went on I found I got some lovely dilucotted edges along with good stropping on flax natural linen then leather. The only thing I can say is I have not come a cross a coticule that I could not achieve hht 3 after stropping. Which for my thick stubble provided a descent shave but nothing special but not tuggy. I aim for hht 4 with fine hair and there is a difference.
I also found canvas that was to new or zippy kind of had no effect on my coticule edge where as good flax linen did make a difference. I experimented with lots of fabrics before leather and flax linen and the hemp linen on the back of dovo model of strop bumped the hht up a point and with out that my coticule edges just fell short.
My method start with bevel set shaving arm hair. Then I start with milky slurry normal pressure working heal to toe with circles all the way diluting one drop at a time not letting the slurry dry out or become thicker. Then when I get to misty slurry just keep on there for a while. Stop and strop linen and leather then I check hht . If it’s a good 3/4 I would test shave ?

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I cannot figure out how to post pictures from my phone.
Also my linen strop is just a kind of cotton belt. But it has the same structure as normal linen strops.
And my shave was tuggy. I will look at a better strop (maybe dovo or something).

I like the feel of the shave I get off a coticule, but often find my stone doesn’t quite get the keenness I want. I use diamond spray on hard felt followed by CrOx on balsa (using a 2-sided paddle) to finish and then move to my leather strop. That seems to push the edge to the next level for me.

The key though, is to make sure the bevel has been set correctly. I do that using a DMT 1000 and work through a progression using Norton 4000/8000 before going to the coticule. The Norton edge is too sharp for me and the coticule seems to soften it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DZEC

I like the feel of the shave I get off a coticule, but often find my stone doesn’t quite get the keenness I want. I use diamond spray on hard felt followed by CrOx on balsa (using a 2-sided paddle) to finish and then move to my leather strop. That seems to push the edge to the next level for me.

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Yes, pasted strops are nice. I have a hanging strop (linen) with CrOx. This gives me an amizingly sharp edge. My backup razor is being kept up with this strop.

Doing some spine leading strokes, help improve keenness.
Just like stropping.

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Originally Posted by outback

Doing some spine leading strokes, help improve keenness.
Just like stropping.

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I will try that

Also here are some images of my stone:

https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/1.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/2.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/3.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/4.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/5.jpg

I couldn't figure out how to post them on this site, so I uploaded them to my own site (which is under construction right now)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blunon

Also here are some images of my stone:

https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/1.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/2.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/3.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/4.jpg
https://blunon2.uber.space/images/coticule/5.jpg

I couldn't figure out how to post them on this site, so I uploaded them to my own site (which is under construction right now)

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Where was it from ? It looks similar to a la veinette the newer mined ones.

yes think you are right Gary looks like a la veinette - same creamy colour like mineAttachment 283950

It is from Ardennes-coticule. Newly mined I guess. But I’m afraid I can’t say which layer. I did not ask.

And mine also has these sub layers on the side