What coticule to buy for a smooth edge?

i have been experimenting a lot with various natural finishers and my edges are keener than ever. i started with a kosher cotiucle, moved on to Thuringians and ended up with several Jnats. However, the keener my edges the more razor burn below the jawline. Next week I will be visiting Ardennes Coticule. I will be looking for a coticule that gives both a keen and a smooth edge. A lot has been written about the qualities of coticules coming from different veins. Any thoughts on what I may want to look out for?

That is super exciting! I would love to visit Ardennes Coticule. I can’t say which vein you should get, but I’m pretty sure they’ll help you out considerably. Actually, I know they will.

Have a great trip!!

I'll be keeping an eye on the thread for updates.

Probably more related to fineness, but doesn't Ardennes have 'select' grade stones??

Have an enjoyable and safe trip and get pictures!

I guess I,m not up on Coticules as much as I thought, i haven't found one yet that wasn't smooth, as far as keen not had that too much from them. most aren't even 8k. mostly ive found that smooth comes from the guy doing the honing, I know a guy who can get smooth from a rock. I hope you find what your looking for, but in my opinion, if done correctly Coticules are mostly smooth and not so keen. Tc

I've never had a bad one either, but some have been better than others

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I guess I,m not up on Coticules as much as I thought, i haven't found one yet that wasn't smooth, as far as keen not had that too much from them. most aren't even 8k. mostly ive found that smooth comes from the guy doing the honing, I know a guy who can get smooth from a rock. I hope you find what your looking for, but in my opinion, if done correctly Coticules are mostly smooth and not so keen. Tc

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The verte line was noted for bumping up the keenness factor a notch. Me, I like any sort of coticule followed by a piece of Welsh purple slate. A coticule is never enough for my tough beard. Have fun in any case. Going straight to the source is always great.

I had loads over the years and I found some were just easier than others I had lots of la veinette and found some of that popular vein to be just as frustrating as other coticule even though my favourite is a standard grade LV. As for keenness if you can get a nice hybrid coticule they produce a keen smooth edge. Like someone mentioned the welsh slate can make and has for me produce a keener edge for those tough spots. I did feel the edge of the welsh slate was a tad more crisp but nice 👍

They all should do that, but I think the most easily accessible/mined vein that does that currently is possible the La Grise layer

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I had loads over the years and I found some were just easier than others I had lots of la veinette and found some of that popular vein to be just as frustrating as other coticule even though my favourite is a standard grade LV. As for keenness if you can get a nice hybrid coticule they produce a keen smooth edge. Like someone mentioned the welsh slate can make and has for me produce a keener edge for those tough spots. I did feel the edge of the welsh slate was a tad more crisp but nice ��

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What is a hybrid coticule?

Hybrid looks like marble ask Maurice he should have some laying around it’s very hard coticule

Thanks Gary, I think I have one myself. I'll check with Maruice.

You need to test natural stones as an independent stone to see if you like how they react to the razor. Coticules aren't synthetic, so they aren't the same stone to stone, like a chosera is or a Norton is. Veins don't matter much either, that's mostly marketing.

Basically you have to try coticules over and over until you find one that works for you, or keep the single one you have and use it for like a year, hone on it every day and keep honing and honing and you may learn that stone over time and get the results you want.

With that being said, I 've asked Maurice personally what veine was best for razors and he said La Vienette was. When I asked why, he didn't give me much of an answer other than it's best for razors...not sure what to get from that.

La Grosse Blanche is called skin-friendly here:
http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1727.html
A good source of information for those of you who want more information on the various coticule layers.

It sounds like you have come upon the conundrum facing every one who hones razors. How do you make a razor that is very keen without becoming harsh?

The answer depends upon several factors: the quality of the hone, the quality of your honing technique and also upon the quality of the steel in your razor. As you hone on ever finer stones, you make the edge thinner and keener, but at some point the steel becomes so thin that it begins to crumble. Also larger carbides in the steel may pop out leaving behind a jagged edge which feels harsh on the face. Some steels are better than others in this aspect. However, it is not enough to define the type of steel as the tempering process also plays a significant role.

I have a tough beard and very sensitive skin, so I am always trying to achieve a very keen, yet very smooth blade. Using the right finishing hone certainly helps as long as you have the proper technique for that specific stone.

Like many others with tough beards, I have found that
edges off a Coticule are smooth, but not keen enough for my beard. If you have a lighter beard, you may love a Coticule edge.

I find that I get the best edges by stropping on pasted strops with super fine abrasives: 0.50, 0.25 and 0.10 micron. I use CBN, but others use diamond pastes and sprays. Some claim that CBN edges are smoother than diamond edges, but I have not tried diamond, so I cannot confirm one way or the other. Diamond sprays are available in both monocrystaline and polycrystaline form. I do not know which is better.

If you can get a keen edge on your stones, then stropping helps smooth out unevenness in the edge that leads to a harsh shave.

It may not work with every razor. I have one that I can get keen, or I can get smooth, but I have never been able to achieve keen and smooth at the same time. I do not believe the steel was tempered properly.

For those saying that a coticule lacks the keenness found in other stones, that may be the case if you finish only on water. If you try soapy water, running water from a tap, talcum powder, oil, you'll find that you can get the edge keener beyond the natural capabilities of the stones themselves. It just takes a few of these tricks to do so, rendering additional stones beyond it, pointless.

@Ray: I have shaved off a coticule in the past. Looking for the holy grail I moved on to Eschers and Jnats. Egdes were getting sharper but now I have arrived at the point that I get a skinrash below the jaw line. So now I am sort of back to square one.

Pink coticules are going to be fast cutters that produce a keen and sometimes mellow edge, wood-grained coticules from the la grise vein are going to be slow, but produce mellow results. I'd avoid anything with a green or brown hue or coloration to it. Anything with black dots and lines are going to indicate a good, fast hone.

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Originally Posted by TheCoticuleWhisperer

I'd avoid anything with a green or brown hue or coloration to it. Anything with black dots and lines are going to indicate a good, fast hone.

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It's still all quite relative. I have a green/brownish vintage (with manganese dots) that is on the slower side both on slurry and water but leaves a really smooth edge.

It's the only coticule edge I might be able to identify correctly in a blind test out of my four coticule surfaces (three stones, one is a Les Latneuses combination).

I've seen and handled quite a few coticules, and imo there is so much variation even with stones from within a vein that it's really not useful to generalize any of the honing properties.

imo vein doesn't guarantee a good stone but might it might increase the chances? I think if you look at the coticule surface that can help determine how fine it is as well as the side. I think if surface looks smooth and solid should be solid finisher. This just from my experience though I will add 2 photos of different coticules I have had. The first is one of my favorite finishers and the other coticule I was not personally a fan of. Although some coticules can have weird looking surfaces and be great finishers while others can have plain surfaces and not be great finishers. I would say magnese is usually a good sign but again it depends. Natural stones can be hit or miss, I wish coticule vendors would have some sort of grit rating for coticules. Like having extra extra fine/ extra fine/ fine instead of just "its a coticule they are all 6k-8k range and they all are great finishers." I could shave with 6k or 8k synth stone edge but I don't want to go buy from a synth stone vendor that says "yea my synth stones are 6k-8k with some being 10k+ but they are all good stones for whatever you are using it for. Trust me satisfaction GUARANTEED...but no returns accepted." sort of bad example but w/e, I suggest buying coticule from someone that offers return. GL

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Originally Posted by Christian1

imo vein doesn't guarantee a good stone but might it might increase the chances? I think if you look at the coticule surface that can help determine how fine it is as well as the side. I think if surface looks smooth and solid should be solid finisher. This just from my experience though I will add 2 photos of different coticules I have had. The first is one of my favorite finishers and the other coticule I was not personally a fan of. Although some coticules can have weird looking surfaces and be great finishers while others can have plain surfaces and not be great finishers. I would say magnese is usually a good sign but again it depends. Natural stones can be hit or miss, I wish coticule vendors would have some sort of grit rating for coticules. Like having extra extra fine/ extra fine/ fine instead of just "its a coticule they are all 6k-8k range and they all are great finishers." I could shave with 6k or 8k synth stone edge but I don't want to go buy from a synth stone vendor that says "yea my synth stones are 6k-8k with some being 10k+ but they are all good stones for whatever you are using it for. Trust me satisfaction GUARANTEED...but no returns accepted." sort of bad example but w/e, I suggest buying coticule from someone that offers return. GL

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What vein is the 2nd one? I typically avoid cotis with that color and surface pattern like a wood grain as they typically are not pure coticule but mostly a mixture of other sediments and minerals that do no cutting or refining of the edge and much less "coticule."

Had some fun yesterday at Ardennes Coticule. Due to the summerholidays it was very quiet and Maurice and his son (IIRC his name is Rob) had some time to help me out. I had asked Maurice a couple of days before to get me a hone for a sharp edge that gives a smooth shave as well. They recommended a La Grosse Jaune (Yellow Fat Vein) hone. I had never heard of that vein before but apparently that is the new kid in town. I was given the opportunity to test the hone. I took out my 5/8 full hollow ground Herder and degraded the edge on a la Lorraine that they recommend for kitchen knives. I had not seen those before at Ardennes Coticule, they had quite a few. After 15 roundtrips on the LGJ its edge was very keen again. Back home the Herder shaved a 12 days growth off in one ATG pass :) Shave was very smooth, no irritation. Final verdict on this hone will have to wait for a couple weeks' daily use.
When I left I got a booklet on the geology and history of the coticule to boot :) For those who read French I can recommend it highly. The author explains complicated gelogical processes in simple terms.

Pictures don't do the hone justice. They were taken on the balcony of our holiday chalet that has dappled shade all day. The lighter areas of the hone are its true colour.

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Isn't that also one with a little of a woodsy type pattern? Or something like it instead of a "kosher" looking one

As state above, I for one prefer woodsy type patterns in Coticules, like the La Grise, very SMOOTH edges from them.

I've had a buddy back in 2011 that also used the La Grosse Jaune layer and found them to give very mellow edges, nice man, I'd love to visit there once myself, and I live in Belgium, so that's a no brainer.

Always had good interactions with Ardennes Coticule, years and years ago when I asked specifically for a big La Grise natural combo, there were none left besides one, their showroom piece, which they sold to me. I've interacted with Rob and Katrien via e-mail and always had good service!


Nice rock!!

It has a little woodsy pattern indeed and on the left even some nashi spots

Always wanted coticule from that vein. Nice grab!

I have found the secret using my Coti is to finish with almost pressure under running water. I was having trouble with my little Coti & saw a video of this method, tried it out & didn't look back!
It just works!! Sometimes if the edge I get off my 16K Shapton seems to harsh I will smooth the edge by doing 8 laps on my Coti under running water & NO pressure & WOW what an edge.

Slawman

La grosse jaune I had one it was number 21 in the coticule vault among the slower coticule. Now I remember it very well as I learned to hone with it . I struggled at first but I remember when I hit the sweet spot with it and it was the smoothest shave I had . I remember messaging Bart about it and thinking this beat a cromox paste. Should never of sold that coticule it was a great shaver. I just received ten coticule a from Maurice and I have feeling I have a three lgj . The ones I suspect are lgj are very thick fat slices yellowish and when whet look dotty.

Gotta say, great marketing, I really wanna buy a LGJ now, I have no need for it, but I'm into the rock collecting business

Thanks for posting about your visit and purchase.

I believe they sell "select" cotis, which I meant to mention before your visit. I figured they would be able to point you in the right direction though since coticules are their business.

Doubt I will ever get to visit Ardennes, but I would enjoy a tour of a quarry like Dan's. Did they speak English there or just french? Too bad the book is in French. I have other books I really NEED to be reading anyway!!

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Originally Posted by Disburden

You need to test natural stones as an independent stone to see if you like how they react to the razor. Coticules aren't synthetic, so they aren't the same stone to stone, like a chosera is or a Norton is. Veins don't matter much either, that's mostly marketing.

Basically you have to try coticules over and over until you find one that works for you, or keep the single one you have and use it for like a year, hone on it every day and keep honing and honing and you may learn that stone over time and get the results you want.

With that being said, I 've asked Maurice personally what veine was best for razors and he said La Vienette was. When I asked why, he didn't give me much of an answer other than it's best for razors...not sure what to get from that.

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I get people ask me all the time... "Which mead is the BEST??" My reply is always "Whichever one I have the most of right now"
Take that as you will :w

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Originally Posted by JP5

Thanks for posting about your visit and purchase.

I believe they sell "select" cotis, which I meant to mention before your visit. I figured they would be able to point you in the right direction though since coticules are their business.

Doubt I will ever get to visit Ardennes, but I would enjoy a tour of a quarry like Dan's. Did they speak English there or just french? Too bad the book is in French. I have other books I really NEED to be reading anyway!!

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They speak English.

When you go there you ask Maurice go hand select on FOR RAZORS. He will give you what you seek. Tell him you want smooth.

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Originally Posted by Kees

I had asked Maurice a couple of days before to get me a hone for a sharp edge that gives a smooth shave as well. They recommended a La Grosse Jaune (Yellow Fat Vein) hone
...
I took out my 5/8 full hollow ground Herder and degraded the edge on a la Lorraine that they recommend for kitchen knives.

After 15 roundtrips on the LGJ its edge was very keen again. Back home the Herder shaved a 12 days growth off in one ATG pass :) Shave was very smooth, no irritation. Final verdict on this hone will have to wait for a couple weeks' daily use.

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Awesome, I also have a Lorraine and been using it as my pre-Coticule hone. Been working like a charm, the Lorraine is a VERY capable hone. I use my Lorraine, do some laps, go to a Coticule on water for finishing. Been getting consistently good edges this way.

Herders are SWEET imo.
Keep up posted how things turn out in the longer run!