Norton No.1 Washita Oilstone

more washita confusion...

picked one up at vintage store with box and label on stone. it also has behr manning and pike markings.

my research on this has left me confused.... from 600 grit, soft fast cutter, coarse, finishing....

did a quick clean and check lapped it to confirm flat, but that was very quick work on 500 grit wet dry sandpaper

ran a couple blade on on it to test it

i don't see it as a fast cutter the way it is now. i don't feel like it would be a decent bevel setter like it is. if so it is a very slow bevel setter

i'm planning on lapping/ refreshing one side... i'd like to use it in the bevel setter range.

what grit wet dry, or SiC tumbling grit do you suggest i lapp this stone to use as a bevel setter?

any opinions comments on this?

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Originally Posted by biglou13

more washita confusion...

picked one up at vintage store with box and label on stone. it also has behr manning and pike markings.

my research on this has left me confused.... from 600 grit, soft fast cutter, coarse, finishing....

did a quick clean and check lapped it to confirm flat, but that was very quick work on 500 grit wet dry sandpaper

ran a couple blade on on it to test it

i don't see it as a fast cutter the way it is now. i don't feel like it would be a decent bevel setter like it is. if so it is a very slow bevel setter

i'm planning on lapping/ refreshing one side... i'd like to use it in the bevel setter range.

what grit wet dry, or SiC tumbling grit do you suggest i lapp this stone to use as a bevel setter?

any opinions comments on this?

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I can't speak for your Washita but mine is painfully slow as a bevel setter. I have to condition it several times with a Norton Crystolon hone (course/fine and I use the course side for conditioning it) when removing chips or setting a bevel. It burnishes quickly. Leave the slurry on the stone after conditioning it for increased cutting power. After getting the bevel set with the Washita you can continue on with it as it burnishes before moving on to the next hone in your progression. If having to hog off a lot of metal (deep chip for instance), I just use a sheet of 1000 grit wet/dry on a flat surface; my Washita could take hours.

Pics would be nice.

I have a butterscotch Washita that I love after bevel setting with a 1000 Chosera. Their too slow for bevel setting, IMHO. Mine is comparable to 4000 grt. Stone.
But by using different lubes, (oil, water, Glycerin, ect) I can basically reach a 8000 grt. edge.

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Originally Posted by outback

Pics would be nice.

I have a butterscotch Washita that I love after bevel setting with a 1000 Chosera. Their too slow for bevel setting, IMHO. Mine is comparable to 4000 grt. Stone.
But by using different lubes, (oil, water, Glycerin, ect) I can basically reach a 8000 grt. edge.

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Attachment 300677

Here it is....norton #1 washita/pike behr manning

Great all-purpose stones. They can be great bevel setters but you have to whip them, beat them and call them Edna.

Like outback mentioned, use different lubes for totally different results. And, try different torques.

Incredible stones that will educate you on how lubes and blade torque can drastically alter your results.

Bevel setter to (semi) finisher is how I describe mine. I can't see ever selling it.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Great all-purpose stones. They can be great bevel setters but you have to whip them, beat them and call them Edna.

Like outback mentioned, use different lubes for totally different results. And, try different torques.

Incredible stones that will educate you on how lubes and blade torque can drastically alter your results.

Bevel setter to (semi) finisher is how I describe mine. I can't see ever selling it.

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I was thinking about selling, but most that have them say same thing ... never selling ...

When you different torque do you mean razor to hone pressure?

I’ve tried most of the lubes mentioned execept glycerine and soapy water . I want get to know this stone better.

I need more beaters to mess with.

Any opinion on what grit to lap/refresh to?

Torque in this context might be better described as rotational pressure. Leading edge strokes,bevel to stone. Sort of a twist while still ensuring that the spine is riding on the stone.

I use the CKTG 400/1000 for refreshing the washitas and arkies.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Torque in this context might be better described as rotational pressure. Leading edge strokes,bevel to stone. Sort of a twist while still ensuring that the spine is riding on the stone.

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Thats torque. Like a twisting durring the stroke on the stone, putting more pressure on the edge than on the spine. Its a touchy subject. And the more hollow your blade the less torque you can use before the edge flexes away from the stone. So watch for this.

Nice old stone. If you look in many old fora, mostly woodworking there does seem to be a consensus that old Lilly White were much finer than later ones, some suggesting from a different source or mine.

I have found that to be true. As with all Arks, stone prep, and lube will provide different finishes, though an old Lilly white may not be a finisher. I like Windex in a squirt bottle, as a lube.

I clean with Barkeepers Friend and a scrub brush and too refresh with a diamond plate, if you want a cutter. But really a synthetic is hard to beat for a bevel setter.

I use my Lilly Whites for tools and knives, smoking knife hone for general kitchen use, and for meat. I’ve had one soaking now for several months, almost all white.

Do NOT use water on a Washita stone if you want it to keep cutting instead of glazing. For very fine stones like black or translucent Arks water can work. It is detrimental to the stone's cutting speed with the coarser stones because they glaze SO much faster.

There are varying grades of Washita too fellas. There were softer and harder stones as well as more and less dense ones. For bevel setting on a razor you preferably want a softer one that's less dense.

I don 't think there's a natural stone on earth that's comparable to any of the usual synthetic stones for bevel setting, at least in terms of raw speed. So keep that in mind when looking at natural 'bevel setting' stones and plan accordingly. That said, I lean toward naturals for most phases of razor honing because they're not as aggressive and I don't mind spending an extra few moments honing to get the comfortable shaving edge they provide. But I do have a Norton 1K, Shapton 2K, and Naniwa 800 for those times a razor needs some serious tuning. YMMV.

Definitely not. That's one area that manmade has nature beat.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Do NOT use water on a Washita stone if you want it to keep cutting instead of glazing. For very fine stones like black or translucent Arks water can work. It is detrimental to the stone's cutting speed with the coarser stones because they glaze SO much faster.

There are varying grades of Washita too fellas. There were softer and harder stones as well as more and less dense ones. For bevel setting on a razor you preferably want a softer one that's less dense.

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Correct..!

If I'm looking to pull the max from mine, I start with oil, then water, and let the swarf to build up in the pores, the a few drops of Glycerin with a bunch of light passes

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Originally Posted by outback

Correct..!

If I'm looking to pull the max from mine, I start with oil, then water, and let the swarf to build up in the pores, the a few drops of Glycerin with a bunch of light passes

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That oughta' do it. Just got to refresh the surface every time though to get that speed back.

Well this is going to surprise some and make others down right mad but I ONLY use Washita stones to set a bevel. I have sold all of my synthetic bevel setting (800/1000) hones years ago. I hone 3-5 razors a week on average. What does that tell ya? I’ve gone mad? No, I am afraid not. Setting a bevel on a Washita has many advantages and speed is actually one of them. I rough the surface lightly with a coarse crystolon stone which is WAY too coarse to hone a razor on but the Washita surface is then perfect for the job. It cuts amazingly fast. The swarf turns black within a few strokes and I have even done light restoration work with them. BUT the speed comes not in setting a bevel fast, although I find it comparable to 800/1000 grit, but in the fact that once my bevel is set I am at around a 6000 edge. That is because the surface quickly returns to normal Washita level. If it has not returned then I will flip it over and I am guaranteed a nice smooth surface but generally I can make the surface return to normal cutting at the time I am done setting the bevel but I have been doing this for a while. The secret is in that they cut wide shallow grooves instead of thin deep ones.
It is not hard but takes some practice. No, I haven’t been drinking or smoking anything. This is not a theory. I have set literally hundreds of bevels with them. They are amazing stones. Here is a link where it explains it much better than I can.
https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum...l-hone.297432/

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Originally Posted by eKretz

There are varying grades of Washita too fellas. There were softer and harder stones as well as more and less dense ones. For bevel setting on a razor you preferably want a softer one that's less dense.

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Very true. I have found lily whites that carry the end label to be a safe bet as to what you get but everything else #1,2, and select Washita (all pike/norton) to be hit or miss as to being fast or slow hard or soft.

I’m learning a lot about my stone with the experienced use comments
I’m starting to understand this stone... it definitely is versatile... it has taken a few uses and refreshing to get it to wake up.
I used it a bit yesterday with mostly water with a drop or 2 of ballistol but was able to almost get bevel set . But spots on edge turned into deep pitting which will need more work. But I easily raised a swarf for the first time. I may continue with depending on my level of patience. But I need to get past edge pitting which is 80% of bevel. Sometimes it’s a zen thing, the mindless / mindful lapping..... what grit is Crystolon stone to refresh ? What are the rest of you using to refresh. Stone now is pretty dark and will need refresh soon.

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Originally Posted by Steel

Well this is going to surprise some and make others down right mad but I ONLY use Washita stones to set a bevel. I have sold all of my synthetic bevel setting (800/1000) hones years ago. I hone 3-5 razors a week on average. What does that tell ya? I’ve gone mad? No, I am afraid not. Setting a bevel on a Washita has many advantages and speed is actually one of them. I rough the surface lightly with a coarse crystolon stone which is WAY too coarse to hone a razor on but the Washita surface is then perfect for the job. It cuts amazingly fast. The swarf turns black within a few strokes and I have even done light restoration work with them. BUT the speed comes not in setting a bevel fast, although I find it comparable to 800/1000 grit, but in the fact that once my bevel is set I am at around a 6000 edge. That is because the surface quickly returns to normal Washita level. If it has not returned then I will flip it over and I am guaranteed a nice smooth surface but generally I can make the surface return to normal cutting at the time I am done setting the bevel but I have been doing this for a while. The secret is in that they cut wide shallow grooves instead of thin deep ones.
It is not hard but takes some practice. No, I haven’t been drinking or smoking anything. This is not a theory. I have set literally hundreds of bevels with them. They are amazing stones. Here is a link where it explains it much better than I can.
https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum...l-hone.297432/

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Very true, Steel. One of the most versatile stones I've ever used. I've used it as a cutter as well, but it was slurried.
I'd like to use it for that, but my hands don't take the punishment very well, anymore. But I do adore it, after the 1000 Chosera. The way it fine tunes, and strengthens a bevel, is incredible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steel

Well this is going to surprise some and make others down right mad but I ONLY use Washita stones to set a bevel. I have sold all of my synthetic bevel setting (800/1000) hones years ago. I hone 3-5 razors a week on average. What does that tell ya? I’ve gone mad? No, I am afraid not. Setting a bevel on a Washita has many advantages and speed is actually one of them. I rough the surface lightly with a coarse crystolon stone which is WAY too coarse to hone a razor on but the Washita surface is then perfect for the job. It cuts amazingly fast. The swarf turns black within a few strokes and I have even done light restoration work with them. BUT the speed comes not in setting a bevel fast, although I find it comparable to 800/1000 grit, but in the fact that once my bevel is set I am at around a 6000 edge. That is because the surface quickly returns to normal Washita level. If it has not returned then I will flip it over and I am guaranteed a nice smooth surface but generally I can make the surface return to normal cutting at the time I am done setting the bevel but I have been doing this for a while. The secret is in that they cut wide shallow grooves instead of thin deep ones.
It is not hard but takes some practice. No, I haven’t been drinking or smoking anything. This is not a theory. I have set literally hundreds of bevels with them. They are amazing stones. Here is a link where it explains it much better than I can.
https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum...l-hone.297432/

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I believe you. I've done it myself also, but I prefer a synthetic only because it's a lot less work - the Washita will certainly set a bevel if it's kept refreshed, but for me it's extra work I don't always feel like doing. I still do set a bevel with a Washita now and then though. The stones don't need to be refreshed nearly as often when used with slightly softer steel. I will have to try that crystolon trick - I usually refresh with loose SiC, so it's a bit of a pain.

There's a couple references in that thread you linked about the stones slowing down due to "clogging" with swarf - that I don't agree with. IMO the vast majority of the loss in cutting speed is due to the stone glazing (abrasive particles dulling) - although I'm sure the swarf clogging the stone plays a minor role also. Evidence of this is pretty clear when the cutting speed stays high a lot longer in softer steels - if the major factor in the speed reduction was clogging, softer steels should slow the stone down faster, not make it cut faster for longer. Especially as the softer steel is easier to pull way more swarf from very quickly.

I can agree with that, just because its true, as well.

For each action there is an equal and opposing reaction.

Or.....Ying/ Yang

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Originally Posted by eKretz

I believe you. I've done it myself also, but I prefer a synthetic only because it's a lot less work - the Washita will certainly set a bevel if it's kept refreshed, but for me it's extra work I don't always feel like doing. I still do set a bevel with a Washita now and then though. The stones don't need to be refreshed nearly as often when used with slightly softer steel. I will have to try that crystolon trick - I usually refresh with loose SiC, so it's a bit of a pain.

There's a couple references in that thread you linked about the stones slowing down due to "clogging" with swarf - that I don't agree with. IMO the vast majority of the loss in cutting speed is due to the stone glazing (abrasive particles dulling) - although I'm sure the swarf clogging the stone plays a minor role also. Evidence of this is pretty clear when the cutting speed stays high a lot longer in softer steels - if the major factor in the speed reduction was clogging, softer steels should slow the stone down faster, not make it cut faster for longer. Especially as the softer steel is easier to pull way more swarf from very quickly.

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What loose SiC grit are you using to refresh?

What grit wet dry sand paper?

What grit crystolon?

Can't speak to the others, but I use 320 SiC loose grit. I would assume something like a 120 or 240 crystolon would work well. I would recommend staying away from the wet/dry. The loose grit and crystolon will tend to produce some loose grit chunks and "scoop" out the stone, leaving nice sharp abrasive peaks behind. Wet/dry not so much.

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Originally Posted by biglou13

What loose SiC grit are you using to refresh?

What grit wet dry sand paper?

What grit crystolon?

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I use a 6” crystolon norton stone with a coarse and fine side. The coarse side is approximately 120 grit according to some and the fine I believe is 320 grit. It is a cheaper alternative to a DMT and is as easy as quickly lapping a synthetic before/after use.

For chips and restoration you may need to go below a Washita. I have used them for this purpose but with restoration honing you may need something else depending on how wide the bevel is, how deep the chips/bad steel goes, how heavy the grind is etc.

I am not urging people to necessarily put away their synthetic stones as they are very effective and sometimes cheaper than a pike Washita. I am only saying that I use a Washita for all of my bevel setting and they have a very wide range which saves me time having to remove deep scratches. Instead of setting the bevel on a 1k synthetic and pulling a 2 or 4K out of a water bath to remove the deep scratches I am able to move right to a finishing stone which saves a lot of time and sets it up for an easy amazing edge.

As outback uses a synthetic to set a bevel and then moves to a Washita and then to some mid naturals before finishing there is nothing wrong with that. I will often finish on a hard black Arkansas or translucent and then go to a thuringian just for extra security and fun!

Of all the naturals I have tried to set a bevel on, all except the Washita have been so slow that it nears impossible and at the very least unnecessarily time consuming even with a coticule. The Washita stone is a special animal indeed, but it takes a level of love (or insanity. You decide) to sit down and learn to use them effectively.

As for glazing vs dulling eKretz, I would agree that the majority of the speed reduction comes from the particles wearing. I can keep a stone almost perfectly clean and it still will slow within a honing session.

I have also used loose SIC and even dust from an Arkansas to refresh a Washita. The Arkansas dust seems to work really good but both methods are meticulous and time consuming. The Crystolon stone does wear down with use too but has lasted me a couple years of some pretty heavy use and is still going but I have noticed it getting finer and finer too. Again, not much different than a DMT but significantly less expensive.

I have used my Washitas as bevel setters for a long time. Moving on through soft, then hard, then SB or translucent arks provides great edges. I use Norton oil on the washitas and softs, Smiths on the hard arkies. I refresh them on the CKTG 400/1000 diamond or one of those cheap Harbor Freight diamond plates.

I bought a Chosera 1K a few years ago and it works well. I like it. If you have one, I wouldn't say that you needed a washita or vice versa.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

I have used my Washitas as bevel setters for a long time. Moving on through soft, then hard, then SB or translucent arks provides great edges. I use Norton oil on the washitas and softs, Smiths on the hard arkies. I refresh them on the CKTG 400/1000 diamond or one of those cheap Harbor Freight diamond plates.

I bought a Chosera 1K a few years ago and it works well. I like it. If you have one, I wouldn't say that you needed a washita or vice versa.

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I have HF diamond hone 4 sided I’ll try that next.

Sorry to be late to the party here. I wouldn't recommend taking an Arkansas or a Washita stone to a diamond hone for lapping. It's a sure-fire way to trash the diamond hone. The Washita no. 1 is great natural bevel-setter, and I would recommend lapping it with 320x SiC powder as eKretz has mentioned. As for upkeep with a Crystalon hone as Steel mentions, this I haven't tried, but it does sound promising. I find that emery cloth on a flat surface also helps to refresh the honing surface.

Strongly agree with arkies being rough on diamond plates and the recommendations of using SIC for lapping.

I only use the diamond plates for refreshes. All it takes is a few seconds of light pressure to bring them back.

Water-only on my arkies seems to allow the swarf to clog them up a little more.

Some guys have posted that WD40 will lift that swarf right out. I need to try that some day.

If you use a diamond plate to refresh an Ark use under running water or under water and with light pressure or you will rip out the diamonds. I don’t use my good plates, but have eBay’s and $30 CNTG 3&400 plates that are years old, have done tons of stones and still cutting.

You are just refreshing, not flattening. Barkeepers Friend and a stiff fingernail brush also works wonders if it is just clogged, works a dream for refreshing diamond plates, make a paste and leave on for 10-15 mins and scrub off.

For more aggressive work loose Silicon Carbide and a steel dollar store cookie sheet on flat cement floor, will get it done quickly with little mess. Got Grit.com will get you an assortment of grits 60-500 for under $15 that will do a lot of stones, and you can experiment with the grits to get the finish you want. You might want to buy extra 60 grit as that is what you will use most for flattening, it is inexpensive.

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Originally Posted by biglou13

I have HF diamond hone 4 sided I’ll try that next.

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i ended up using well worn down 150 wet dry to refresh, tried the HF diamond plate on side seemed to harsh
i'm going to stick with wet dry, and SiC powder/grit

on last run i did clean off swarf more often and it stayed fresh longer..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biglou13

i ended up using well worn down 150 wet dry to refresh, tried the HF diamond plate on side seemed to harsh
i'm going to stick with wet dry, and SiC powder/grit

on last run i did clean off swarf more often and it stayed fresh longer..

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With HF tools, there's no telling what the real grit is on their diamond hones! I've seen drastic shipment to shipment variations on their imports. Even different packaging from different vendors with the same part number. Gotta love 'em.