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I currently have the following stones:
Chosera 1k
Naniwa SS 3/5/8/12k
Suehiro Gokumyo 20k
I am not in love with the feedback I receive from the Naniwa SS stones. Any advice on swapping over to either Chosera 3/5/8 (snow white)/10 or Shapton Glass 3/6/8/10/16k.
Thanks for your input!
I hear you with the Super Stones. The 8k Snow White will eliminate the 8k and 12k Super Stones. (Folks say it is higher than 8k, I think so, amazing polish for an 8k almost stria free), And is an easy jump to the SG20, Natural or Chrome Oxide. It is also splash and go.
So, if you go that route, you just need a good 4k, I like the Naniwia Hayabusa 4k. But really any 4k will do. You are not shaving off that stone so, it does not matter much. The Nubatama 4k is the best, if you can find it. Smooth and fast, I haven’t seen them for a few years.
Your progression would be Chosera 1k Hayabusa 4k, Snow White 8k (white box) though the Fuji is very close second. And SG20, or Natural,
The only benefit of the Shaptons over the Naniwias is splash and go. If you do go Shapton you can make the 8k to SG20 jump easily. You don’t nee the 10 or 16.
Splash and go for me is over rated, I just use a plastic tray and a squirt bottle instead of a spray bottle and keep the top of the stone flooded after a couple squirts, just add as needed.
Years ago, I tried to put together the ideal progression and ended up with a Nubatama 1 and 4k, Snow White 8k and SG20. That is my go-to, I do switch up the 1k with a Chosera and a King, all 3 work, with the Nubatama the most aggressive, actually the Norton is most aggressive but I don’t use it much. For some reason I like the King 1k, it is muddy and a quick soak helps, but it is fast and smooth (muddy).
So, the bevel setter and middle stones don’t matter much for me, the 8k is the workhorse that get me to a finisher.
The Choseras and especially the Snow White have a reputation for cracking. A friend has had 4 SW (he really liked them) and they all cracked and there are threads on Chosera cracking here. I have a SW and it shows some fine spiderwebs. That said, SW/Chosera are thick as opposed to the Shapton Glass 5mm thickness. The Glass stones do take a while to wear out but it can be done, especially if you hone pro or semi-pro.
There are 2 series of Glass Stone so you have a choice there too. The original HR is the white one, they’re very fast and a joy to use if you control the cutting speed. The speed is especially nice with full hollow razors because you can’t push very hard on them. I use a 4k Glass HR for light bevel work on full hollows.
The grey HC (high carbon) series feels very much like the Shapton Pro, smoother, softer feeling while honing, not as fast as the HR and designed for high carbon steel. These are currently only offered (I think) in 4k, 6k, and 8k, but more are coming I believe.
Cheers, Steve
I have the Shapton Glass series 1k 2k 4K 8k 16k 30k. It is the foundation for all else I might do with my naturals. The SG stones are easy and reliable to use. I wouldn’t use anything else as the center of my setup.
“The Choseras and especially the Snow White have a reputation for cracking.”
Yup, Snow White is crazed, a bunch of cracks that you cannot feel. It does not affect honing or the edge I use it almost daily and has been crazed for 4-5 years now.
My 1k Chosera that is older maybe 7-8 years has not, it is pristine. I just splash and go with both of them.
I do have a new Snow White in the box, just in case. There was a rumor a couple years ago that it was going to be discontinued, but I don’t think so.
I heard they craze if you soak them, I did soak it when I first got it. Now I just splash and go, I also lap often, every time I use it. It is a hard stone. I would not worry about the crazing.
I use the Chosera 1K, 3K, 5K, then I use the Snow White 8K, Naniwa 12K, then a final SG 20K, the Snow White 8K is a stone I've used for many years, I also think the Snow White 8K is higher than it's 8K rating I would say more near a 10K stone.
I too have a snow white, that's cracked. I call it my egg shell, rock. For it reminds me of a hard boiled egg, that's been rolled around on the counter.
Haven't used it or my SS, in some time. I set the bevel on a Chosera, then progress through Nats.
So...I like to hone a bit more. :shrug:
Except Nubatamas, I have/had all of the stones mentioned and more. I still consider the Glass HC 8k to be the best 8k stone I ever used. Even the HR works well (now I have them both).
The Choseras and SW need attention. I still hear about cracked ones. They never got soaked once and still cracked. Even the 1k can crack if the air is too dry for long. I've seen this as well. Alternatives would be the Kramers, but the 10k can also split on its own at some point, so I don't know. I really like the rest of the set. Not 100% like Choseras, but close. I've used them side by side on all grits.
I would say that Glass HR/HC 4/8k would be enough. HCs are easier to work with and better for razors as far as I could see. Right now in Europe they go for about 110€ both. Definitely best buy.
Thanks to all for the input! I could not resist and ordered a SW 8K last night. I have been wanting to try this stone for some time now and it was time! I will play with it and see how it performs.
As far as the 4/5k goes, I received a quote on a Nubatama 4K bamboo for $104 shipped from Ken Schwartz. I am going to hold off on this stone for now and play with what I have.
Thanks again for all the input!
Good choice, synthetic stones are just a matter of personal preference. The better stones all do the same thing, about the same way. Some feel different, some may be a bit more aggressive, but none of that matters, (5-10 laps more or less) all that much once you get to the finisher.
As long as you do your part, fully setting the bevel and removing the deep scratches from the previous stone at the edge, with each stone you will get to a finisher, that will polish the bevel and give you as straight an edge as possible.
The brand or model of the stone does not matter. Some guys bevel set and then finish on 2 stones. For hundreds of years guys shaved just that way, a course stone and a fine stone, then stropped on a bit of paste and used the finisher and paste to keep shaving.
I have even done a full progression from 1k to 8k on Wet and Dry and finished on a natural. I defy anyone to shave with that razor and one honed on stones and finished on the same natural, to tell the difference.
You’ll be happy with the Snow White it is a good stone, really an edge does not get real straight until the 8k, which is why I use it for a jumping off point to a natural most often. It is a very easy jump.
Lap it well, it is hard and enjoy.
Have anyone had issue with cracking/crazing with the Naniwa professional stones. As I understand, these are the "new" Chosera...
I wouldn't be surprised if they had the full range of HC in Japan for years. I had a grey GS in 220 grit in 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Have the 1k & 5k. No problem at all here. Just have to treat 'em right. No extreme soaking , sunny shelves or close to aircon etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Robini
Just wipe down and put aside after use.
I received my Snow White today. It came stuck to a plastic base. My questions are 1. is this an old run 2. does it come off of the plastic base?
Sounds like you have the new version, IF-1001 here:
https://www.hocho-knife.com/naniwa-s...th-stand-8000/
The original Snow White is IF-0001
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ornasnwh8k.html
Or here:
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/N...-P1423C97.aspx
Some folks believe the original is a little better for razors and the new version better for knives, but as President Abraham Lincoln said ‘you can’t believe everything that you read on the internet’. Never had the new version but if the darned thing doesn’t crack, that would be a definite improvement.
Cheers, Steve
Any insights on the old vs new versions? Also has anyone removed the stone from it's base? It appears to be glued down.
There’s a review of the two somewhere on another forum. Not sure if I can find it or if I can legally post the link. Bottom line was that the reviewer felt that the original was better for razors and the new better for knives, but that the difference was very small. If it isn’t your final finisher it will never matter. This single review is the only one that I’ve seen comparing them. You might shoot Mark Richmond at Chef’s Knives To Go an email, if anyone would know he probably would.
There’s always some risk trying to remove a glued stone from the base, I’d probably leave it as-is for a while.
Cheers, Steve
Thanks for the advice! I reached out to Mark, he said to his knowledge they are the same. You can order the stone with or without the base, the base being the only difference. I returned the one with the base and ordered one without from CKTG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
My Snow White crazed and cracked as well. Like some posts above, I also used to soak it because it was thirsty.
That was the old version. I also got the new one, on the plastic base but I haven't used it yet.
When time comes to use it I will avoid soaking it.
I have the new one. But I don't think you have "the new one". Old ones don't really exist new anymore, so it might be made recently, but it's not the replacement. So you should get the same performance as the original stone. Well, as close as possible anyway. I was lucky enough to find a old used one a couple of years ago and I have the replacement as well.
The new one (so called "the new SW") and for someone new to this, might be a bit complicated as it needs to be properly lapped and dressed first (doing this by using it with anything takes a lot of time and still doesn't get as good as it can, I've tried, but even doing it with DMT takes some time and dressing to higher grits is not that easy either, but it makes quite a difference) and it does need some water. Why more water this time? I guess the guys at Naniwa wanted this stone to breath a little. This might help with the cracking. But this is just a guess. The byproduct is the fact that in some scenarios this stone might put more visible scratches.
I wouldn't call it soft, just maybe a bit softer than the original. Performance is pretty similar, with a lighter touch. Once dressed right, it's very close to the SS12k surface like (I can't tell them apart by feel alone and I think more people have had the SS12k and that's the surface goal). One must understand that they can't be used exactly in the same way with same results. The are different stones.
Regarding the removal from its base, as far as I know and saw, Naniwa does not "glue" them completely to the plastic base, like Suehiro does for example. Still, I would not recommend it. You could damage the stone. And, sooner or later, if you really use it for something else, as it gets thinner, it needs support since these stones are not exactly stable. I'm not sure the version without one is a better option. The bad news is that the base has little effect on the cracking issue. It could happen regardless, but at least the stone remains in one piece/place. I've seen shattered.
Absolutely true. I just finished using an old Carborundum hone and the final edge is perfectly usable. And we live in very strange times. I've been called hipster for doing this. More than once. In fact even for using a razor at some point. But I've been called worse for using razors, so... Heck, even for sharpening knives on stones...Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Anyway, I could shave without problems. But I use these old hones just for experience and changing the scenery. It's fun sometimes. I find them very interesting. Some are dry, some wet working with all kinds of stuff, some are quite fine, some very fast and so on. I never quite understood how barbers used them while being clearly not flat at all. We now put such an emphasis on flatness, that those hones look like impossible to use (and I've seen it with some old naturals as well).
There is one thing. Most people won't really do this or care about it now. I've talked with so many. Most want something easy, consistent, reliable. And even if they did care, sooner or later most will settle for something that just works and call it a day. Some don't even use stones anymore, but that's another matter.
What I did a while back, went a bit above personal preference and again, without something like this, it's hard to say what to like best. It served more than one purpose. For example, I took one of my 1k and after one 4k stones and used all the best 8ks I knew with it. Took another 4k and did the same thing and so on. Micro, shave, same razors, start from the lower end every time. It took a lot of work and even so there were variations beyond control, but at some point some stones developed a pattern of behavior performance. This happens for any kind of blade actually, with all the systems. Some (just one sometimes) were just easier to use, better overall results, easier to maintain, easier even to keep on a shelf anywhere. And things start adding this way, getting a bit off the "I just like the feel of that". Of course it all starts from the performance point of view. Sure, there can be more than one good stone. There can be even personal bias based on other things. Sure good stones get to the same place, but some might just do it better with a little less fuss, while others could be a bit temperamental at least.
Even if I still have several good stones for most grits and I enjoy using them all, I find myself going often for those that deliver as good as possible. It's normal I guess. Otherwise, almost any of them could be used. In general we are too much caught up in this "having/using the absolute best". It's a survival nightmare sometimes.
I know people that would pick a Shapton Glass 8k over SW without hesitation and I'm sure there is the opposite. I have a number of reasons for this, they could have others. Nothing wrong at either end.
I haven't heard them to be as problematic as the old ones, but yeah, some did crazed. Even the lower grit ones, like 2k. The 2k I have is problem free so far, after maybe 12 months or so, I can't remember. I never did something special to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robini
It's not just these. Some Shapton Pros did the same (all that "this is for Japan and this is for US" made little difference in the end) and I've seen it on Sigma (the absolute most aggressive behavior of them all when it happened as they shattered in one go without warning) and Kitayama as well. Funny (or not so funny) is that I've been soaking my Sigmas for years up to the high grit with no problems, while others didn't and still ended up with cracked stones.
What might work to prevent or at least reduce this, is to allow them to dry slowly. Store them in boxes with vents (you can buy some or just make some or even recycle old Norton/Naniwa/Shapton/Mino boxes if you have any). Since these stones will dry at a different rate from inside, that is some stress over time. They do take some water. You don't have to soak them for this to happen.
Some people are doing this with good outcome so far. Time will tell if it works on the long run. Some, that use stones with a base, have put them in towels. I would love to do a project on it, but it's complicated. Looks easy enough, but due to the control group and different working scenarios, it's not that simple or cheap. I just don't have the resources.
I received my 8K Snow White from CKTG. It is now lapped, which did not take long at all. I touched up a Riga (Böhler R100 carbon steel) and Koraat 14. Yes, this stone does it's work quickly! Much better feedback than the Naniwa Super Stones. Finished on the G20K. Look forward to shaving with them to test out my work! Keeping my fingers crossed that I do not see crazing and will make sure to report as such.
Thanks to all for your help!