Zulu Grey vs. Greek Vermio on Identical Torreys

So I said that, since I just finished these two nearly identical Torreys that Tom sent me, and I have a couple of newer natural hones to play with, I would do sort of a honing shootout.

Both went through my usual progression of Chosera 1k, Norton 4/8k, and finishing on a freshly-lapped Naniwa 12k with whisper-light strokes under dribbling water under the faucet. Then on to the naturals:

This one in the faux tortoiseshell pearloid acrylic got about 120 strokes on plain water on the 8x3" Zulu Grey TC sent me to play with me (until mine gets here in a few months lol). Post-hone stropping consisted of 15 strokes each on rough and suede sides of my kangaroo strop to clean things up, about 20 apiece on a couple of progressively finer vintage shells, and the piece de resistance: about 150 strokes on the vintage Naomi-San French Hide shell Tom sold me with the Torreys.
Attachment 314438
The other one in black pearloid got about 80 strokes on plain water on the Vermio, which seemed to want a hair more pressure like my surgical black. My intuition told me to do about 40 more on water with a drop of dish soap, and finish with about 50 on WD-40. It seems of similar hardness to my hardest Arks, and is only 5" long, so I treated it a little more like an Ark (though they are very different geologically). Stropping progression was the same.
Attachment 314439

This morning's shave test on Wholly Kaw King of Oud lather (one of the slickest I've used) revealed the Zulu Grey as the clear winner for just a nice, smooth "velvet squeegee" level of shave, and it might be the easiest natural hone I've ever used! (so similar to a thuri in effort and results).

The Vermio was still a great shave-just the tiniest bit crispy like an Arkie edge, maybe 2% behind the ZG. It will no doubt smooth out with subsequent shaves.

I hope this helps anyone looking at or comparing these two great hones. Right now, I'm liking the ZG, and am seriously glad I ordered one at 50% off. Merry Christmas fellas!

On a Torrey, I would have put money on the ZG all day long, I often use it for American steel with "Wow Results" I just don't have enough experience with the Vermio to know what steel it excels on consistantly :(

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

On a Torrey, I would have put money on the ZG all day long, I often use it for American steel with "Wow Results" I just don't have enough experience with the Vermio to know what steel it excels on consistantly :(

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I don't have enough experience with either one to say what they will do consistently, but yeah, the ZG definitely shone on hard American steel.

That said, I've gotten some great edges off the Vermio on a few recent edges (both the Shakespeare (Sheffield) and the S. Karam (German) had softer steel-I wish I could remember the other ones I used it on with stellar results). Right now the ZG is my favorite hone-I want to compare it to my beloved SB Arkie on identical razors and see how they compare. More fun with naturals!

I'd love to hear about the SB Arkie VS Zulu Aaron. For someone who loves his Arkie. It might be a game changer.

I'll try to find two more similar blades to try that one on, Jerry. I too really love my Arkies, but I'm all about the smooth, so if the ZG is consistently more smooth, we'll see. I keep looking for the 1 holy grail natural that will do it all. Meanwhile, I'm having a blast trying them all, though I haven't done much more than dabble in cotis and jnats-I'm finding I like simple on a hone.

In other news, I finally got the Belomo Triplet 10x loupe cuz someone on here hyped it quite a bit, and wow-the detail under good light is all I need. I think I'm gonna toss my $5 Chinese junk magnifiers now!

Last I heard the Holy Grail was in Spain not South Africa...................:rofl2:

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Originally Posted by 32t

Last I heard the Holy Grail was in Spain not South Africa...................:rofl2:

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Not to mention what happened to all the knights on the Grail Quest (though the only one who was pure enough to touch it got carried straight to heaven by a host of angels).

I gotta dig out my Zulu's and give them some love. :)

Yeah, Randy-I've been doing some reading and googling. Seems like people are really divided on this stone. Mainaman said years back that they were better than his Escher-not sure how he feels about them now. But I did come across an interesting Zulu honing vid on YouTube by Robert Ortiz (who sold his SG20k after getting his ZG!)-I've learned a lot watching his approach on naturals. I'm going to give this a try:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWshsOv_fA

As a follow-up, I'm doing a lot of honing and experimenting over my Christmas break, and so took the time to read Zib's 48-page thread on the ZG here:https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/8...can-hones.html

Fascinating reading on the development of this stone by MichaelC starting with a few testers-not sure how I missed most of it in 2012, though I do remember all the ZG hype around '13. Anyway, one of the techniques I tried from that long thread was to finish on thuringian slurry. As I only have 1, a 5x1 Celebrated Water Stone, I used it to generate my "thuri slurry" (don't worry, I didn't hurry haha). I have done 4 razors that way, starting with a moderate slurry and about 6 sets of 20, with a light water spritz between. Rinse razor and stone, and follow with about 50 laps under dribbling water in the sink. Finish with about 50 on water with a drop of dish soap. Maybe that's over-kill, but it felt right.

My usual post-honing stropping regimen involves about 150 strokes over progressively finer roo, horse shell and Japanese cordovan (no pastes or CrOx to confuse the results). Results have been butter-smooth. I continue to be impressed by this stone, and further experimentation is warranted. I forget who in that thread strongly recommended Smith's (water soluble) Honing Oil, but I may try it once my own stone arrives-not gonna put oil on TC's stone.

I've found some great keen results from the Zulu and a straight edge. Not so much the softer, smoother feeling edge I can get from other naturals. And with the Thuri I get the more smoother feeling edges, so this is a grand idea mixing the two. I will have to get this a go.

Both of the razors could use a heel correction. The tortoise scaled razor is wider at the heel than the toe and the spine at the heel shows that it is not making full contact, and riding the stabilizer, keeping the spine off the stone, which is why the heel is wider. It could be the photo, but it also looks like the middle has a slight frown from the excess pressure.

A slight heel correction will move the corner well forward and get all the edge evenly on the stone.

The Black Peral razor shows heavy wear on the spine, stabilizer and tang. The heel is narrower than the toe, and lots of spine wear due to extra pressure trying to get the heel flat on the stone. The stabilizer is keeping the edge off the stone until the stabilizer is ground down. Even then the edge will wear faster than the stabilizer and can lead to an uneven edge.

Here again heel correction will allow the edge to lay flat on the hone, make honing much easier and may affect the results of your comparison.

Nice scale design and execution.

Not a fan of the Vermio and have not spent enough time with the ZG to prefer one over the other. My SG20 gets very little use and only occasionally, simply as a finisher of only 3-4 finish laps. Preferred finishers are Jnats and Black or Translucent Arks from a 1,4,8 progression.

I'm happy to see your updates on the stone! Reminded me that mine is on the way and to keep my butt off ebay!

The first razor does appear to have a touch of a frown, but the second one looks like a nice smiler. But, I've been boned by light and angles in photos before.

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Originally Posted by dinnermint

I'm happy to see your updates on the stone! Reminded me that mine is on the way and to keep my butt off ebay!

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I assume you mean you are getting the ZG, John? (Since that's your old Vermio, as you know). At this point, I'm liking the ZG better, though I've gotten a few edges close to it off the Vermio. I'll be interested to hear the results of your own experience with it, though I do recommend that long old thread I referenced earlier-the ground work on this stone has mostly been done for us; in any event, it is one of the easier naturals I have used.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Both of the razors could use a heel correction. The tortoise scaled razor is wider at the heel than the toe and the spine at the heel shows that it is not making full contact, and riding the stabilizer, keeping the spine off the stone, which is why the heel is wider. It could be the photo, but it also looks like the middle has a slight frown from the excess pressure.

A slight heel correction will move the corner well forward and get all the edge evenly on the stone.

The Black Peral razor shows heavy wear on the spine, stabilizer and tang. The heel is narrower than the toe, and lots of spine wear due to extra pressure trying to get the heel flat on the stone. The stabilizer is keeping the edge off the stone until the stabilizer is ground down. Even then the edge will wear faster than the stabilizer and can lead to an uneven edge.

Here again heel correction will allow the edge to lay flat on the hone, make honing much easier and may affect the results of your comparison.

Nice scale design and execution.

Not a fan of the Vermio and have not spent enough time with the ZG to prefer one over the other. My SG20 gets very little use and only occasionally, simply as a finisher of only 3-4 finish laps. Preferred finishers are Jnats and Black or Translucent Arks from a 1,4,8 progression.

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Thanks for the tips on geometry, Marty. Like you, I always hone with tape, so any spine-wear was pre-existing. I don't know that you can tell a lot from my lousy phone pics, as the faux-tortoise scaled one has heavier spine wear in the middle. Neither has any frown that I can detect. But you're right-I did get slightly up into the stabilizer on the black pearloid one, and I even felt it on the stones, and had to do some extra back and forths on all stones to get the heels in line. Next time on the rocks I'll correct those heels.

On these two, the narrower toes didn't want to make contact without rocking the razor on each stroke. I have learned to compensate on razors like this with both a rocking motion and a decidedly windshield-wiper type stroke in which I lift the heel slightly as I come around, rather than a straight x-stroke.

Still, both provided a stellar shave, so I'll just wait until they need honing again to worry about geometry issues. I've got a few bevels to set and some others at various stages on the dining room table while my wife is away visiting her parents.

Sometimes I do love my shoulderless razors for ease of honing!

One other thing, Marty, since you finish on JNATs and Arks (which I also love-I just go through phases and love to experiment). Anyway, from my limited experience on JNATs (from a couple of Keith Johnson's Shobudanis I never should have sold!), the ZG reminds me somewhat of a JNAT in its surface, and the way slurry behaves on it. If I understand their origins correctly, both also originated a couple hundred million years ago from very fine sea-floor sediments, right? That said, I'd lose a bet if a nagura progression on a ZG wouldn't also yield similar results to a JNAT? (Sadly, I sold all my nagura with 1 of those shubos!).

An easy way to test what it will take to hone it, is to ink the bevel, spine, stabilizers and tang, if you see wear on the tang.

Then put it on a high grit stone, 8k ish without tape and do a few laps and see where the ink comes off. Do the bevels ride flat on the stone, does the spine touch from heel to toe on both sides on the stone? Check both sides a warp or twist can make a big difference from one side to the other.

If the spine and edge are not flat on the stone, figure out why. Heels and stabilizers seem to be a common problem that is easily corrected with a diamond plate and in a lot of cases will allow the bevels to lay flat. WD40 will easily remove all the ink.

You can hone a razor without correcting heels, you have to grind the stabilizers down to the angle of the bevel, but the bevel angle may not be the same across the entire bevel.

I have experimented with Nagura on a variety of stones, natural and synthetic, but rarely does it improve the best edge the natural is capable of. Jnats seem to be the only exception, probably because they are similar makeup and it is not just the grit of the nagura but a synergy of grits and how they break down.

For example, I have had interesting results on Arks with Nagura, Tomo and Asano, CBN and Diamonds, but with Arks, nothing is better and consistent as a burnish Black or Translucent edge. What’s the point? If you want a CBN, Diamond, or Chrome Oxide edge, just strop on a pasted strop for that edge. If you want a Jnat edge, use a Jnat.

I have several Kopa unstamped Jnats that produce smoking edges after a near mirror 8k Fuji finish. Once you have a smooth flat bevel you do not need a large stone or a lot of laps to get a great finish. Small stones are great way to test a lot of stones for not a lot of money. Once you find what works for you, then invest in a large stone.

With a Zulu you would probably get “different” finishes, but probably the best finishes will be with the stone’s slurry, using a cushion layer, (oil, Smiths, Ballistol or soap), or burnish one side of the stone, so it cuts less aggressively. Hard naturals can finish at higher with a burnished finish, if you don’t like it, lap it off.

As with most edges finished to a high level, a lot will depend on the steel and how fine/thin an edge the steel will support.

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

I assume you mean you are getting the ZG, John? (Since that's your old Vermio, as you know). At this point, I'm liking the ZG better, though I've gotten a few edges close to it off the Vermio. I'll be interested to hear the results of your own experience with it, though I do recommend that long old thread I referenced earlier-the ground work on this stone has mostly been done for us; in any event, it is one of the easier naturals I have used.

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Yup, I got sold on the ZG with the sale, price too good for a stone I've heard so much about. I wanted a natural finisher with more realestate for my larger blades than my thuri's and finer coticules, which are either thinner than 2" or no loner than 5". I can do the honing gymnastics, but when the blade is +1" wide, it feels like a triple lindy when you're breaking 100+ laps. I'll definitely share my thoughts, as I'm pretty stubborn to use slurry nor anything that isn't water on my stones....

I have a Zulu Grey and I have a Greek Vermio. They produce fantastic edges, both very sharp, yet smooth if used properly. The only other stones I have that will produce shave ready edges for me are the Imperia la Roccia and the Suehiro G20K. I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the ILR stones, but I got a good one. If I start on slurry and finish under running water it will produce a very nice edge. I am not certain which of the four is my favorite. I tend to rotate among them as my final finishers depending upon my mood at the time.

I took a razor up to 8k then to the Zulu with some Thuri slurry on it. Worked it for around 80 laps finishing with 10 light laps on CW. Came up with a very keen edge that was smooth but not as much comfort as i find on a thrui stone. I was expecting more smooth with the thuri slurry. I will have to try again and finish on the slurry next time. Just want to share my findings. It was a great edge! Just not exactly what i was looking for.

Hey Aaron, I see u like dish soap or WD-40 on your finishing strokes, have u tried using pure glycerin, thinned with water, along the way.

Found it works well with Nats

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Originally Posted by outback

Hey Aaron, I see u like dish soap or WD-40 on your finishing strokes, have u tried using pure glycerin, thinned with water, along the way.

Found it works well with Nats

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Jerry-I'm still very much in the experimenting stage myself, but I went to the ZG from a Nani 12, as there were some fellows testing it back in that South African Hones mega-thread who felt that the 8k to ZG jump was just a bridge too far without more extensive work on the ZG. I have had fantastic results by going from the Nani 12, creating my slurry with the 5x1 Escher starting with about 30 light circles on each side, then doing about 5-6 sets of 20 x-strokes starting on moderate thuri slurry, with a spritz of water diluting between sets on the slurry side of TC's 8x3. Rinse and flip, and do about 50-60 light laps on clear water on the polish side. Finish with another 50-60 laps with a drop of dish soap. I finish with my usual OCD stropping progression.

Results have been smooth and keen so far. Of course in order to really get to know the stone, I need to eliminate variables and see how far I can go with just the stone, water and maybe its own slurry. That same thread indicated that ZG slurry generated by a DMT or similar plate is also awesome, as its almost too hard to generate much slurry on the ZG rubbing stone.

Mike-I have done glycerin and water, but it's been awhile. As I have a large bottle of it and a few more razors to hone before going back to work, I will take your suggestion and give it a whirl. As it's water-soluble, I wouldn't have to worry so much about it around my water-stones. I don't even keep WD-40 at my regular honing table cuz I know I'm absent-minded enough to pick it up instead of my water bottle for a spritz on my water stones.:dropjaw:

Whole reason I stay away from using oil, except for knives.

I like staying with water, for most of my honing, and use the build up of swarf as a way to lessen the effects of the stone, and ability to burnish the bevel.

Always cool to see how others accomplish their goals.

I have heard that said about polishing silver, that experienced hand polishers prefer to use a tarnished rag over a clean one, the swarf burnishes the silver.

I dont think 8k to the zulu is too much. But from the 12k would be easier. The edge i got was a great shaving edge. It was my SOTD pictured razor.

I might have to try your technique too, Mike. For what it's worth, I just test-shaved with both my recent Torrey and Ocean rescales hone up on the thuri slurry regimen above-total velvet squeegee. The Torrey especially didn't even feel sharp on my face-just butter smooth.

Meanwhile, my other naturals arrayed around my honing station are giving me the stink-eye. I especially want to revisit my long-neglected PHIG. The last time I used it years ago, I was really only a beginner with naturals, but still got great edges off it.