Looking at getting a surgical black or translucent Arkansas stone to use as a finisher after my coticules. And I'm wondering how much i any further refinement, I would get out of an arkansas stone, since my edges are super smooth and skin friendly but could use a bit more keenness. Would I also be able to maintain the mellowness (and forgiving nature) of the coticule edge with an arky or does all that go out the window once honing upon the Ark?
Welcome!
Are you looking for an excuse to buy another hone? If not I would look at getting some chromium oxide and a paddle strop. Load the paddle strop with a light coating of CrOx and do like 4-5 light stropping strokes and test shave it. Keep upping your stroke count until you get where you want.
If you are looking for an excuse and like fiddling around, then yes you could expect a slight improvement over a coticule, or it could be less. That’s the funny thing with using an arky to finish with. It’s all about the finish the face of the hone has. There are one or two threads going right now concerning Arkansas stones. My black and my butterscotch would both add a little to a coticule edge in way of sharpness, though it may be a little less in the comfort department for the coticule edges I have tried. Both my stones have been taken to 1500 grit wet/dry then burnished a far amount with a chisel.
If you’re not opposed to synthetics a good place to start for a finisher is a naniwa 12k. Pretty tried and true, relatively inexpensive and easy to learn.
Well, at least you have my permission to buy as many and varied honing stones as your heart may desire. Just learn to use them. That’s part of the fun of this hobby. The True Hard class of Arkansas stones will add keenness to your Coticule edge to some degree. I’ve got nearly 50 razors in rotation and I like variety of edges, so I’ve got Coticules, Arkansas, Zulu Grey, Belgian Blue, and Shapton Glass series. I love them all. Here’s the thing: do what you want. The final stone is considered the finishing stone. If done right what came before doesn’t matter much. Experiment and have fun!
I wanted to add: I’m not a paste guy. Stone, steel, leather, badger is my mantra. There’s just something about honing a razor on a stone to shave ready perfection that moves me and connects to a nostalgic past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree
Ark vs coti. You may have opened can of worms .....
I think both provide spectacular edges. with skill you should be able turn up sharpness level with either stone.
You also raise a quandary Sharp vs comfort.....
How long have you been honing, shaving?
Do you know how to push the sharpness on a coti?
Are you finishing with slurry?
Dilucot?
Have tried finishing on coti with clear water, water plus glycerin.?
What is you honing process with coti?
Have you had some else try to get more out of your coti?
How are you stropping? What kind of strop?
I have. A feeling you haven’t maxed your coti out yet.
Are you using the coti exclusively to hone?
Get or borrow a few different arks and test them. Different arks perform differently. Right know I’m enjoying a non burnished surgical ark. i also have trans white, and trans black convex ark, for finishers. They all provide great edges. And comparing these edges falls into esoterica........
There really are too many variables to answer you questions directly.
Ps
Welcome
Well I have a saying :
A sharp blade is made, a soft blade is earned.
What I mean by that is that a hone will be able to create a sharp blade, but a soft blade is a blade you have used a lot on your skin, stropped a lot of times with the proper gestures and so on. A blade soft for you won't be for anyone else.
And, back on the topic of arkansas post coti : which arkansas, which coti ?
You know, while most coti have a high, refined grit, not all veins are the same. I have an old beige coti that I use before the BBW because it has a very coarse grit. Probably less than 2000.
Some coti can get a "finisher class" grit, some just don't.
I suppose it's just the same with Arkansas whetstones. Being natural stones, you can't guarantee a grit.
I would suggest you explore what biglou13 said. Then, maybe, try a normalised high grind stone (like naniwa 12k) and compare the results, it might tell you a lot on your stone and technique
For my most consistent edge I will hone through film progression to 1u . Then return blade comfort with light coti passes no slurry with water and glycerin. Or light passes on ark with water balistol and dawn ... just enough to impart its personality to edge. This seems to push the edge a bit further without depending on luck, or spending a lot of time on finishing stones ( slightly less sharp than 1u edge )
Nice answers and welcome to SRP.
The one thing i will add is, at some point in the keen and smoothness there is a trade-off. You can get so much of one before the other degrades. So finding that balance is what its all about. And we spend many many hours trying to master that balance. It can be done and with lots of stones. Its up to you to deciede when your happy with what you have made for an edge.
In my opinion, an Ark will absolutely refine a Coti edge, it's like the two were made for each other. I only dress my Arks as far as 600 wet/dry and quickly run a kitchen knife over them. I want the Ark to cut rather than burnish the edge as, IMO, cutting is what refines the edge. If your going to polish your Ark, you may as well just use a steeling rod as all you are doing at that point is moving the steel and not actually refining it. I only use propylene glycol USP as a honing fluid. It is non toxic pharmaceutical grade and completely water soluble allowing you to control the viscosity as you hone.
A dark blue Thurigan should do the trick. Or a Escher, should you want to spend the extra $, for the name.
I hone up to a Coti, then refine/finish on my Escher. That's my sweet spot. I've only had one person that I've honed for, say it wasn't keen enough for him. But he also likes to haul large amounts of gasoline, over and across icy mountains. :rofl2:
But yes, a black or Translucent should keen it up, but I'm not sure of the comfort level. You might even think about a 3 line Swatty ( barber hone ). Just a few passes after your Coti, would keen it up, also.
A simple pasted strop will improve a Coti, yet keep it comfortable.
That's the fun part of honing....finding what feels best to your face, and how u achieved it. YMMV
Have u put any time on the BBW, that's attached to your Coti, they help in keening the edge a bit more than the Coti. Start with slurry, and dilute along the way.
All of the finishing Arkansas stones I have (black, translucent, burnished, refreshed) will absolutely hands down improve any coti edge I have ever had. I am significantly biased towards Arkansas stones so keep that in mind.
You know, this is an art as much as it is a science and as many have said previously, so much depends on the razor, the stones you have (particularly if they are natural), your technique, the way you strop and what you strop with, your beard, etc.
My most consistently comfortable edges come from taking the coti to just water and then adding some keen by finishing with chromium oxide on balsa. This seems to work especially well for Sheffield steels.
But that’s me.
Flamed again. Poor me. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::nono::rofl2:
I agree with the above 100%. For me comfort over that laser sharp edge!!!!. I cab get that laser sharp edge easier on my arks. And almost with my coti. But comfort is king. And with technique i get a near BBS 2 pass shave. With a HHT 3.5 edgeQuote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
Pedigree when you check back let us know ....i have a secret (not so) technique to max out your coti
What's your secret to maxing it out? Running water? Glycerine? Soap?Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
Ymmv, imho, ..... blah blah blah....Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree
What is you process to hone a razor?
Every coti is different....
Part one
Start with with slurry, dilute as you go.
Rinse stone and razor well
Add Water and equal drops of glycerin, home with decreasing presssure.
Every so often. Clean razor and strop on naked leather....... then strop some more... test razor.
Return to glycerin and water And stropping if necessary.
Some cotis need many laps Some need less. They all benefit from stropping.
Part 2
Use synthetic progression to bevel set 12- 14 K range. Spending extra time at 5 K range. Strop. Test razor. Should be wicked sharp. Go to coti with light slurry.... minimal laps, look for misty finish on bevel, Repeat step 1
Such has been my experience with them, every Arkansas stone I have will polish an edge far beyond what my coticule can. Especially the ones that have been surfaced and polished with Chromium Oxide to heavily burnish them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
As for 'improving an edge's more than a Coticule, well that's where things get subjective. Will they get sharper/keener? Almost beyond a shadow of doubt. Will it be equally comfortable to shave with? Not without a significant amount of stropping, or several shaves to break the edge in.
So it really depends on what your target is - a sharper, keener edge or one that is more comfortable to shave with.
I prefer the Arkansas stones, YMMV.
I‘ve actually tried this out on 2 razors with different results. Each tim I‘ve finished on La Dressante on plain water, test shaved, then finished on translucent Arkansas on glycerine-water mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree
On my Filarmonica 14 my Arkie definitely improved the keenness by maintaining the mellowness compared to my La Dressante.
My 5/8 Tennis seemed to not „like“ or accept Arkie after Coticule, the edge got harsh, but maybe it was my hand...
Regards
Philipp
How are you liking the convex black ark? I've got one... just got a BIG flat black ark and think I prefer the second...Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
Cheers, HJ
HJ-I'm not biglou13, but I got one of those convex trans arks from Jarrod at TSS, and was getting stellar edges off of it after some time spent burnishing it. I sold it to Mike aka SonnytheHooligan, who seems to have disappeared since-anybody heard from him?Quote:
Originally Posted by HungeJ0e
I like a coti to ark progression and enjoy shaving off the edges it produces. It will be a keener edge so not as forgiving.
Have a look at the " Reetec " 15k stone, only £31 and a great polisher, I usually finished on a Shapton 12k but when I seen the Reetec at that price I got one, it only takes maybe 15/20 laps to get that edge supersharp.