Got a box of 25 stones, need some ID help (cotis, and thuris, and Norton? Oh my!)

Had a once in a lifetime find at a garage sale last week! Short version is that I now own an additional 25 stones and 40 straights :rock:
(including a W&B FBU, 9/8 near wedge... But that's another topic)

I'm hoping to find some help identifying a few things here, starting with the hones.

Overall pics of fronts, backs, and sides and info I have so far below
Questions and additional pics below that

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1. Exide 87x50x7mm - smells/feels oily
2. Franz Swaty 130x52x13mm "Three line" barber's hone
3. Norton 130x55x15mm - red/black combo stone Update: i think this is the infamous "crazy axe hone"?? Will get some closeup pics later
4. Congo No. 4 - D. F. Politi & Co. Boston Mass 112x51x15mm - New in box/wrapped, missing lid. (see more below)
5. American Hone Co. Olean, NY - "Moss" 70x50x15mm
6. Possible Escher? (see more below) 178x37x19mm
7. Possible Thuringian? (see more below) 127x62x20mm
8. Coti 86x51x25mm (see more below)
9. Coti 196x68x30mm (see more below)
10. Unmarked natural stone 122x62x20mm Gray with a greenish tint, very fine, pretty dished. No clue on this, will lap it eventually to see if it's anything decent
11. Rubbinit 600 (broken) 124x40x17mm
12. No markings 150x50x15mm Dark grey, looks synthetic, feels medium-fine
13. No markings 100x50x10mm Reddish-brown synthetic, looks/feels similar to the Swaty
14. American Hone Co, Olean NY 87x49x8mm Light Gray with oily residue on top
15. No markings 150x50x20mm Red/black combo stone, smells oily
16. identical to 15 - Update: gifted to a friend
17. No markings 120x50x8mm Red/Black combo stone, smells oily
18. No clue - there is definitely something stamped on the side, but it needs a good cleaning, i can't make out what it says. 200x53x19mm Feels like it may just be a fine carborundum - Update: Solved. After cleaning up the side i could partially read the original stamp ".....ndum Hone no 105". So this is, in fact, a Carborundum Hone. A single grit SIC oil stone.
19. Unmarked hard Arkansas (darker than the 2 Norton labeled ones below) 122x46x24mm - Update: gifted to a friend
20. Norton Hard Arkansas 122x49x24mm
21. Norton Hard Arkansas 126x50x10mm
22. Unknown synthetic 115x73x14mm Light grey, light weight, marked "C400 R V". It's certainly a coarser stone, though I wouldn't have guessed as low as 400 grit, but I can't imagine what else that could mean
23. Don't know, don't care lol Just a soft, medium grit, brown stone that's dished to hell and back. It'll end up in the shop for rough, imprecise sharpening tasks
24. Mystery stone 83x50x14mm (see more below)
25. Unknown - has a label, but can't read it. Stamp on the other side is just for the distributer. 112x52x15mm Tan/Brown combo stone Update: I'm wondering now if this is a Frictionite no 00, after partially lapping it. I'll have to take some new pics

#4
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Not sure what this is, but it's brand new, still wrapped in paper, with the above two notes wrapped with it.
Only have the bottom half of the box (dark blue), no lid.
Haven't found any info on it yet, only thing I've found so far is that the small paper above matches a paper someone has with a frictionite stone....this clearly isn't that, but maybe it's an American Hone Co stone of some sort?

#24 Mystery Stone 83x50x14mm
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Really not sure on this one. I thought it was a small coti slurry stone at first, but it was very grimy.
When i went to lap it, it stinks! The dark side smells like...patchouli maybe? The light side smells similar, but with sulfer mixed in.
The long sides look 100% like a perfectly straight glue up or synthetic combo stone, but the short ends are very uneven at the transitions.
One end shows it was obviously cut down from a larger stone, by hand, with a hacksaw, sloppily.
Both surfaces full of micro-cracks.
Pics shown partially lapped, to show discoloration (lighter center is fresh lapped, dark edges are original color)
I'm thinking some old synthetic stone, but the foul smells make me leary about what may be in it...?

#6 & #7
Thuringian/Escher?
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I've never handled an Escher before, but the coloring on this reminded me of reading about them in the past.
Then i noticed that this scrap of a label left on the end of the skinny one looks identical to the border found on some of the Escher labels I've seen online. Particularly, this old German label here
Escher's and Thuringian's Found in the Wild
Am I reaching? Or is that a reasonable guess?

The reason I'm thinking the wider stone is "related" is that these two stones have a very similar look/feel to eachother, and the pattern to the layers from the side view look strikingly similar.

The long skinny one is lighter with green hue leaning towards the warmer (yellow) end of the spectrum, while the wider one is slightly darker with a green hue leaning towards cooler (blue).

It's my understanding that Eschers were just a branded version of select Thuringian slate. Based on that, I'm thinking the skinny one with the label scrap could be an actual Escher, and the wide one with no label residue would (in theory) just be an unmarked Thuringian slate?


#8 & #9
Large and Small Coticules
I have very limited experience with coticules (i own one other), and am hoping that someone more knowledgable can help me with identifying these two.
I have my best guesses for each below the pics, using info found in this pdf doc that i found through another forum :
http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_4_belgian_whetstones.pd
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The obvious flaw here is that the article only discusses a handful of types....but coticule.be isn't exactly set up for easily searching by identifiable criteria


Small coticule, natural combo - 86x51x25mm
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I'm thinking maybe La Nouvelle based on the sharp transition lines into the Rouge de Salm, and the overall smoothly colored surface, with just the lightest hint of blue-ish/grey marbling in places.
But I'm not very convinced, based on the darkness of the color

It seems rather large for a slurry stone, but the heavily tapered ends would imply that's all it was used for, and I'd have no intention of changing that.

At any rate, i love that extra little strip of coticule layer down in the Rouge, gives it some nice character


Large Coticule, natural combo AND glued layer -
196x68x30mm
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First off, let me just say this stone is a beast! Lol
Clocks in at 2lb 10oz, or 1,185 grams
Based on that pdf, I'm guessing this to be a thick piece of La Dressante, containing both the La Dressante au Bleu and the La Dressante Upper Layer mentioned in the doc.

This side shot will show why. There are two distinctly different colored layers in the coticule layer, lighter on top and darker near the transition line.
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The surface has very faint white streaks in it that didn't show up very well in the photos.
The parts that look like cracks are black and reddish-orange veins (can't be felt when honing)
The slurry is very creamy, and seems to hold up for a while.
Tested first on an old sheffield steel chisel, and it cut very fast on a thick slurry, turning black after just a couple strokes.
Tested on a W&B razor it seemed reasonable fast on slurry, very slow on water, left a comfortably smooth edge with the unicot method (even considering I'm WAY out of practice on honing, and didn't have a huge amount of experience using coticules in the past)
Stone gives quite a lot of feedback, in both feel and sound.
Pics show it only partially lapped, haven't flattened right to the very ends yet... May not waste the stone by doing that anyway, there's still plenty of surface area there for now.


If you've made it this far, thanks for taking the time to look!
Really hoping for some help on the ones that are pictured individually, but open to any info anyone has on the rest as well!

Thanks in advance

That's an incredible haul!

Awesome find. I'm with you on #6&7. Long skinny looks to be a yellow/green, and the short wide might be a Blue/green barbers delight. ( looks similar to mine )

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Yes Escher is a labeled Thuri by the Escher company. That said the narrow stone actually seems to have a remnant of an Escher label. Some of the stones had the end of the label folded over the edge and that red seems pretty spot on.

Dual tone, wow. Nice find.

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#24 looks like a coti cut down to be used as a barber hone.

I have one that looks pretty much like that, but without any nasty aroma. Wonder if they used some kind of oil on it.

#7 is very likely a "Barbers Gem". Very few Thuri's are wider than 50mm or two inches. That and it is two toned makes it highly likely. Great find!

Thanks all!

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Originally Posted by outback

Awesome find. I'm with you on #6&7. Long skinny looks to be a yellow/green, and the short wide might be a Blue/green barbers delight. ( looks similar to mine )

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Definitely looks very similar!
The dimensions are definitely much different from a lot of the long skinny ones I see in most threads. I'm hesitant to say an Escher Barber's Delight without any remnants of labels, and because of the rough cut back...I thought those were usually more of a "select" stone, finished on both sides? (i should get a pic of the back)

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Originally Posted by alex1921

Yes Escher is a labeled Thuri by the Escher company. That said the narrow stone actually seems to have a remnant of an Escher label. Some of the stones had the end of the label folded over the edge and that red seems pretty spot on.

Dual tone, wow. Nice find.

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Thanks for the confirmation. I mean, I'm feeling pretty darn confident about that label scrap, but didn't want to think I was just seeing what I wanted to see lol
As for it being a two tone, the back on the skinny one is pretty rough too, looks like someone used it for some pretty damn rough breadknifing...likely on tools or knives, it's way too much gouging for razors.
Haven't decided yet if I'll lap the backside or just leave it and enjoy the single side.
Sealed the ends and back with poly today though, to keep those little remnants on the ends in tact.

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Originally Posted by DZEC

#24 looks like a coti cut down to be used as a barber hone.

I have one that looks pretty much like that, but without any nasty aroma. Wonder if they used some kind of oil on it.

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That's definitely a possibility still, but I dunno, something about the cracking pattern and smell gives me a synthetic feeling in my gut...but again, I'm no expert

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Originally Posted by Toroblanco

#7 is very likely a "Barbers Gem". Very few Thuri's are wider than 50mm or two inches. That and it is two toned makes it highly likely. Great find!

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Another possibility, but the reply to Outback above is relevant here too.
Was also wondering if it might be one of the Droescher branded stones? I seem to see more of those in these wide/short ratios

Big bunch of rocks. Nice find for sure.

Those Norton axe hones fetch big dollars down under, the last one I saw go to auction was from an outstanding member from SRP in Australia and ended up here in New Zealand.

Yeah, I've been looking into that one over this past weekend. Was having a bit of trouble finding too many recent sales of them, wasn't sure if that was because of scarcity, or if that fad was dying down?
I haven't listed anything on ebay in like 15 years, but might have to dust off my account for this one lol

The further I get into researching everything here, the more I'm blown away... Someone really put together one helluva collection here!

Nice collection, soaking in Simple Green or Awesome will get the naturals clean without damaging them. I would not soak the synthetics, especially the Norton.

For more Coticule info go to Coticule. Be or Razor and Stone. Razor & Stone used to have a good stone database with good photos, but I do not know if that site is still going. I was unable to log in last time I went there.

No. 23 looks interesting, some close-up photos would be helpful. Clearly it was well used. May be a much better stone than you think. The collector had a good eye and knew his stones.

Thanks for the tip on the simple green. Most things i just clean while lapping :shrug:

On that note, i know lapping is not generally recommended on barber hones, unless really necessary. Unfortunately, that was the case with a few of these....including the Norton :cry:
It was dished by about .3mm,not a ton, but in 2 different spots on the stone, rather than just one smooth curve.
Probably not an issue if someone is going to sharpen an axe with it, but if i do end up selling it, i can't let it pass through my hands without at least trying it on a razor first and seeing what the fuss is about!
I'm following the instructions provided by Modine on lapping and reconditioning barber's hones.
The Norton is just about done, looking and feeling amazing so far, just needs a little more burnishing at the higher grits.
I know, many will think i'm a lunatic for not just immediately flipping it, but the way i see it, I'll never go and buy another, and stones are meant to be used :shrug:

I had tried going to Razor & Stone the other day, but everything says access denied on all the links. Tried signing up for an account and it keeps telling me I failed the Captcha verification, even though there isn't one anywhere on the sign up page?? So I gave up. Might try emailing an admin later.

You make a good point about the rest of the collection, in relation to stone 23.
I'll have to get some simple green and clean it up, and see about getting more pics once cleaned

“Don't know, don't care lol Just a soft, medium grit, brown stone that's dished to hell and back. It'll end up in the shop for rough, imprecise sharpening tasks”

I’m thinking, possible Jnat?

Hard to tell from the photos, but he did collect some fine stones, and somebody like it, a lot.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“Don't know, don't care lol Just a soft, medium grit, brown stone that's dished to hell and back. It'll end up in the shop for rough, imprecise sharpening tasks”

I’m thinking, possible Jnat?

Hard to tell from the photos, but he did collect some fine stones, and somebody like it, a lot.

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I'll be visiting home depot tonight after work for the Simple Green! :chapeau
All I can say for now is that it appears to be a pretty consistent light brown color with darker speckles on the clean-ish worn areas. Definitely an oiled stone. And one end was either left unfinished, or this broke off a larger piece many, many, many years ago.
If I had to guess, I'd say the surface feels below 1k, but that's just a guess on a dirty stone for now

A couple cell phone pics for now, will take better ones once it's cleaned (the photo equipment is packed away at the moment)
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Originally Posted by Euclid440

No. 23 looks interesting,

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I didn't get a chance today to drag out all the photo equipment (one of these days I'll set up a small light box so that's much less of a chore for small items like this)
But the simple green did clean it up pretty well, it's much lighter than I thought.
And the two ends and one side that I thought were just extra grimy appear to actually have been sealed. The second long side was not, because it's been used for sharpening

Then I started messing around with it, and now I'm more confused than ever lol
A stone THIS dished, i assumed it would be quite soft. I thought I would do just a little lapping on one side, to see how clean the surface was compared to fresh stone underneath, and this thing is super hard! Without a fair amount of pressure, it just skates across the coarse DMT.
Then I decided to sacrifice a mirror polish I just put on a test chisel, because the stone still feels fairly coarse, and i wanted to see what sort of a scratch pattern it leaves.
This stone is fast...black streaks after a couple strokes, and pushing a burr in no time. I wouldn't say it left a perfect razor's edge, but it tugs hair above the surface and cuts it with a little pressure at skin level.
And as for the scratch pattern? I don't entirely know how to describe it...the steel looks more smudged than scratched, if that makes any sense?
Still polished enough to read in the reflection, but it's hazy, almost like a fogged mirror.

Suffice it to say, I'm quite intrigued by this stone now, thanks for encouraging me to give it another look.
Will try to get those pics soon.

In the mean time, i got bored watching tv tonight and decided to start lapping another stone

10) Unmarked natural stone 122x62x20mm Gray with a greenish tint, very fine, pretty dished. No clue on this, will lap it eventually to see if it's anything decent

I rubbed a rough chisel across this one the other day, just to see how it felt, and a couple chips in the chisel left nasty scratches, with very little pressure. This one is SUPER soft.

But that's not the interesting part.
Here's what i found after a bit of lapping
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First off, whoever owned these stones couldn't stop dropping his wrist to save his life. Every one that is dished also has a hump in the middle and low sides. Going to lose a lot of stone if I want to take this all the way to flat.

But it's the dark diagonal streaks that are interesting here.
They don't show up well until there's bright light on them (like the flash in this crappy cell phone pic)
Under normal light, i can only see them from one direction. If i lay the stone flat on the table and spin it 360 degrees, they disappear from view for more than 3/4 of the rotation
They aren't continuous lines, just a bunch of narrow, short, tapered streaks all heading in the same direction...tiger stripes is the only thing that comes to mind.

Does that mean anything to anyone?


P.S.
This is how a broken edge looks on this one, if that helps at all
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Finally got around to taking a couple cleaned up pics of stone #23 tonight. As I said in an earlier post, this got MUCH whiter after cleaning. Still speckled.
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Also, for such a badly dished stone, this thing is insanely hard. Makes a noise like ceramic knocking against the DMT plate, or similar to a couple hard Arkansas stones clacking together.
The DMT coarse stone barely touched it, took quite a bit of pressure to get it to cut at all.
And this is the only stone I've ever seen that got darker on the lapped bits (see second pic above, and close up below)
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Now that it's cleaned, the un-lapped surface feels to my fingers like something in the 1k range.
The lapped part feels much finer and is somewhat reflective. (note: my DMT coarse is getting pretty worn, probably not really a "coarse" anymore)
The finish it leaves is nicely polished, but also sort of evenly hazy. Only slightly less hazy on the lapped section)

I'm really not sure at this point. After doing a bunch of digging around online, I'm wondering about Washita maybe?
But then, i think they're supposed to be softer and coarser than this?

What are you lapping with?

You can get a 140-diamond lapping plate from Chef Knives to Go for $30. It is a great diamond plate that can take a beating. Great for lapping stones flat, then smooth with 300 ish plate.

Yea, not Jnat one 23, the rounded corners looks like a sythe stone. Looks like the owner was a knife sharpener, from the wear on the stones edges.

That is a wahita. Probably a hard/fine one. I have one that can do a light bevel set all the way to 7kish. Very wide range on some of those.
Use loose SIC on those to save your diamond plate. Washitas and Arks can eat up diamond plates. Even good ones! Just finish with the plate because Atoma flat is real! Lol!

Those corners were done quick on a well worn DMT coarse. I have Granite/glass and SIC powders that I've been using, just didn't feel like dealing with the mess for a quick test on this one

I gotta disagree on the synthetic guess.
Do you see the faint white lines in the closeup pic?
I originally mistook them for scratches, but they're not. They're streaks in the stone, they run all the way through to the other side.

Visible here running through the edge
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I haven't got back to play with it anymore, got distracted messing with stone #10...then got distracted from that by working on finishing the restoration of the antique chisel I was using as my test steel lol

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Originally Posted by Toroblanco

That is a wahita. Probably a hard/fine one. I have one that can do a light bevel set all the way to 7kish. Very wide range on some of those.
Use loose SIC on those to save your diamond plate. Washitas and Arks can eat up diamond plates. Even good ones! Just finish with the plate because Atoma flat is real! Lol!

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I think you're right :)
That said....there's really not going to be much stone left if i fully lap it lol
We'll see, maybe if i get bored enough one day.
In the mean time, I'm already looking at another washita for sale online lol

Yea. Could be Washita, just lap the flat side, leave the concave side.

If it Washita you need some loose 60 grit Silicone Carbide, you will ruin a Diamond plate and sandpaper won’t do much.

Yup, would definitely do the less dished side, and definitely with the SIC powder :beer1:

Amazing Find !

Pretty much the collection one could retire on.

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Originally Posted by cman670

Pretty much the collection one could retire on.

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Yeah, this pile could be the last stones i ever need to buy, but will they be?
That's a whole different question lol

I understand completely. I have quite a few nice stones (some here as well) and still look at these like I have none. I'm hopeless.

From what I've read, about your lapping, and the pics of the hone, I'd agree with a Washita of some type.

Will light penetrate the stone.? I have two of them, one is partially translucent, the other, not at all.

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Originally Posted by outback

From what I've read, about your lapping, and the pics of the hone, I'd agree with a Washita of some type.

Will light penetrate the stone.? I have two of them, one is partially translucent, the other, not at all.

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Interesting, thanks!
I hadn't come across anyone talking about translucency on those.
A 600 lumen flashlight held against the surface, immediately next to the edge, shines through the side for 1/4-1/2".
Just holding it up to natural light doesn't do anything

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No. 25 is probably a Frictionite 00. The "micro cracks" you referred to are caused by freezing and thawing or improper tempering during the manufacturing process.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

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No. 25 is probably a Frictionite 00. The "micro cracks" you referred to are caused by freezing and thawing or improper tempering during the manufacturing process.

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I'm in agreement there. I don't remember if I said already, but in addition to how the stone looks, using a loupe i was able to make out just enough of the sticker to see that it matches the side sticker found on the Frictionites that instructs which side to start on and which side to finish on.
Under magnification I still found no remnants of the branding stamps, but I'm still pretty solidly convinced there

Nice Thuringians, Number 6&7...Probably a Barbers Delight
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Love those triple colored ones

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