I've done some lapidary in the past, so I'm sort of being pulled toward trying some natural hones. What would be a good/more forgiving type of stone to start on?
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I've done some lapidary in the past, so I'm sort of being pulled toward trying some natural hones. What would be a good/more forgiving type of stone to start on?
More forgiving to what, your razor or your wallet?:rofl2:
Paul makes a good point. Natural hones have many price points that come with many claims. I don’t know much about natural hones but I do know the question you asked is very open ended.
Of course I got milage at your expense, (sorry for that) but that question is quite subjective. It's almost like asking who is the best rock band or who is the best guitar player. The devil is in the details of questions of that nature. Everyone has their opinions and you know what they say about opinions so we'll leave that open ended.
Personally I like Arkansas stones but I must disclose that my Dad had a bunch of them which he uses in his sharpening business that I inherited. Now I won't pull the appeal to authority fallacy here because he never used them on razors (that I am aware of) and even if he did he could still be wrong. But since I got them without outlay of cash plus they are heirlooms they mean a lot to me. I can attest that they give a fabulous clean and crisp edge and they are also very, very durable and more affordable than many others, at least here in the US. However, there are others who do not like them because they are slow (meaning they.take lots.of time to achieve the desired effect) and they have limits like they are not practical to slurry and their character varries so broadly within the same type of stone.
Jnats (Japanese natural stones) are very popular with those who like them but are the primary subject of my earlier joke as they can be very , VERY expensive. Their use is also quite complicated especially for someone starting out.
The point is that there are many different aspects.to consider. I personally will tell you Arks for the reasons.i have stated but take that for what.it is worth. Many others will dissent I'm sure.
Id say as a finisher a thuri can be nice and basic. Like an Arkie they are basic stones. But all Natural stones take time to learn. Syntetic stones are the best when learning to hone as they are straight forward. Less of a learning curve.
Having synthetic stones to work your way up then finishing on a Natural is the way to vo if you want to do Naturals. Or open your wallet and buy a few Jnats and cross your fingers. As that swimming pool is expensive to play in and you may not ever get a great edge.
Honing is an investment of time and money.
I've been honing for many years, spent lots of money buying all sorts of hones, to find the four stones I need to create the desired edge.....for me and my face.
Others have also enjoyed this edge I've created on their razors, as well. It takes several years to master honing techniques, and even I still learn new things along the way.
Try learning the different stones, and their capabilities, before diving in head first.
There's nothing subjective about the best rock band Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Obviously it's Queen, everyone knows that and the best guitar player is Brian May :bow
I do concede that natural hones are subjective though, I also found from personal experience that it's a lot easier to get help and honing advice when a person first begins razor honing if they learn on synthetics.
Saying that, if a person was determined to learn to hone on naturals, I would have to say a Coticle is a reasonable stone to start with in my humble opinion. A lot of the experienced guys use them so there would at least be some advice available, they are quite fast so a person would be able to see some results of there work in a reasonably short time, they are not too expensive compared to some naturals and they do produce a nice smooth comfortable edge when a person learns to use them properly.
I still maintain that learning to hone on synthetics and taking advantage of all the available help would make it so much easier to transition to naturals, there is not a guy here that hones, even just their own razors that cannot use a synth and most started on them The experienced guys and mentors will be able to offer so much more help on synths to learn with.
Honing a razor is absolutely nothing like sharpening a knife (that's probably why all my kitchen knives are so blunt that I have trouble cutting butter) and as far as lapidary goes, a great hobby. My wife is well into that but being into rocks and honing on natural stones, I don't think I would let that influence me, initially at least.
I think part of it depends on what kind of person you are too. Synths are definitely easier and more reliable, definable and repeatable and they are definitely quicker than nats, Arks especially. Still where's the fun in that? We all ate mushy peas when we came off the teet and had no teeth. If one's happiness depends on having success every time then stick with synths. I don't say that as a judgement, just a point of fact. Not everyone likes the wilderness. If not stay your ass in the city because tagging along will suck for everybody. For me there is something...cro magnon about finding a rock and rubbing shiny things on it to make them ouchy. That's all part of the fun. That's where the joie de vivre comes from for a man ape like me stuck in civilization whose wife makes him sleep in a building instead of under the stars...she won't come along otherwise...:shrug:. Anyway that's why I walk by a rock garden and say, "hmmm" :confused::hmmm:
I started doing a full progression from bevel set to finish on Arks out of sense of adventure and because they were Dad's. It can be done but it is true that your best bet is to start with some synths, get your feet wet and then venture out. Not everyone is Jeremiah Johnson but if you are you can definitely make it happen if you're willing to fail some getting there.
Once you have a basic progression down pat. I would, in hind sight, buy and learn a finisher, one at a time. Finishers are much easier to find. There are nice mid grade hones out there too. For restoration honing and repair most use a synthetic.
Walter, natural hones are a rabbit hole. Traditionally in Europe and US coticules and Thuringers were mostly used. The Japanese had their own: a rabbit hole inside a rabbit hole. Vintage codicules and Thuringers on the bay are usually good in my experience. Japanese hones IMHO are best bought off a reliable vendor.
Coticules are still extracted and the new ones are as good as the vintage ones. They can be bought of the quarry in Belgium and some razor- and knifemongers have them on their sites as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
I don't disagree with you Paul but, the obvious point is that a person learning to hone needs a system that has repeatable results and a lot of available help (Synths).
That is probably not the most fun for people like you that are at the stage in their honing that they can experiment because they know a good edge when they get one, but I don't believe you would even think of talking a newbie into joining in your fun.
As far as mushy peas, I'm English. We get Mushy peas with our fish n chips (and curry sauce for our chips usually).
I must not be stating things correctly because people keep missing my points. The safe route is to go the synth road. However someone had to be the first otherwise we wouldn't know any of this. I'm not trying to tell anyone to go any direction. The OP sounded adventurous so my point was that that's always a way to go and it's definitely an adventure. Just be aware here be dragons. For those with big brass ones the spoils are sweet but pricey.
Edit: PLUS, let me just add that we act.like.no one would ever figure out how to hone a razor without someone to hold our hand. The internet is great but it is also a crutch, just like cell phones. I learned to shave and hone in the dark with one double sided barber hone and a straight both heirlooms. I know many others did too.
Hi Walter, welcome to the forum.
If you're into lapidary, you definitely will want to check out this thread;
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...ver-there.html
In general, I agree with STF that synthetics are probably the best route to learn honing razors on for the reasons he gave. I think this is especially so if you are learning from scratch to rehab old razors that may be chipped among other defects. OTH if you are learning to do touch ups only then a natural can fit in there nicely as a finisher or at the end of a synthetic progression on a rehabbed razor too.
Bob
“What would be a good/more forgiving type of stone to start on?”
Assuming you are new to honing and straight razor shaving and are looking to maintain a razor as opposed to restoration, a small Jnat, (Koppa) or a small vintage Translucent Ark 6”. A koppa Jnat and a diamond plate to make slurry and flatten stones under $100, or a Vintage Translucent, also under $100.
Get on CNTG mailing list and they will email you when their Koppa’s are in stock. Their $80 Nakayama Koppa sell out in hours.
Buy vintage Arks, not new, you do not need a large, expensive stone to refresh or finish. Larger is nicer, but pricy, you can finish on a 4 inch stone easily but 6 inch is a little more real estate. There is a nice 4 inch vintage translucent on a well know auction site right now for $30.
Both are easy to use and capable of producing the best shaving edges possible, it is where most shavers/honers end up after trying all the other hones available.
Honing can be as simple or as complicated as you make it, but really a Jnat with diamond slurry will refresh an edge easily. As will a Translucent and oil or soapy water. Both can keep you shaving very well for a long time, assuming you learn how to strop. Stropping will improve or trash an edge quickly, which is why you need to learn to refresh. Stropping is way under rated, and more difficult than it looks, to do properly.
(Learning Jnats with Microscope) thread for Jnat honing instruction with great bevel and edge micrographs.
Best place to start, IMHO, is with good quality synthetic stones, or lapping film.
But if you narrow the scope as you have in the question, to just naturals, my vote is split between arkies and a coticule.
Arkansas stones or other novaculite type stones run in a range of densities and degrees of fineness. You can set a bevel on a medium Arkie just fine. Been there, done that. Just keep the pressure reasonable and use a thicker honing fluid than you might normally use, to reduce scratch depth. Harder Arks to refine, and a well burnished surgical black, or translucent, to finish. It is these extra hard glassy stones that are nearly pure quartz that are infamously slow. They don't self slurry. The coarseness is all about the surface finish. Lap it well and carefully, run it up through 1k or 2k sandpaper, then rub with another similar stone or some 3u lapping film on a granite plate, whatever, and you are halfway home. Final burnishing calls for steel. Honing a stainless steel chef knife works nicely. Eventually you get a very smooth finish on the stone and it in turn will do a great job finishing a razor, if you put enough time in on it. "Great" being a subjective and relative term, of course.
I may well be in the minority here, but I prefer big stones with lots of honing real estate on them. Big trans or SB arkies are not common and are expensive, but sometimes you can get lucky and find some great stones at garage or estate sales.
Next up is coticules. Why coticules? Because they are as close to a practical one stone solution as it gets, and while they are a slurried stone, they are not as complex as Jnats can be. The slurry stone for a coticule is just another piece of coticule. If you have a 600 or 1k synthetic for setting bevels, then you can carry on with a coti using dilucot. Start with a heavy slurry and firm pressure. Gradually lighten up on pressure and dilute the slurry until at the end you are using weight of the blade only, and clear running water. Edge sharpness is nothing to brag about but most will agree that at least a nice coti edge will be a comfortable shaver. Since you generally will never need to reset the bevel again, you do a lot more touchups on the razor than bevel sets, and so rather than spend money on a stone that you will never come close to wearing out, just use sandpaper for setting the bevel. Coticules don't turn up at garage sales as often as Arkies but it is not unheard of, either. Prices on very large rectangular coticules, especially natural combos, are pretty high but most coti users get used to smaller rocks.
Jnats can be a big rabbit hole. However a nice level 5 stone can be used as a finisher without naguras (fancy exotic foreign word for "slurry stone" in practicalese) to perk up a dilucot edge. A Jnat can actually be quite a bit cheaper than a coticule, The shoe box full of nagura that you will collect later is where you will have the most Jnat money tied up. Get them later, under advice from the Jnat gurus.
Meanwhile my advice if you insist on naturals is to start with arkies or coticules. If you want a natural for just a finisher, there are other options to consider. When your income tax refund comes in and the money is burning a hole in your pocket, maybe look into thuris, charnleys, stuff like that, or a nice big Jnat and two or three recommended naguras. THAT ought to keep your hands busy and out of mischief for a while.
I have done Arkies. I have done Coticules. I even went through a very brief Jnat stage. (still got the Jnat rocks, somewhere.) I always go back to good synthetics or lapping film, and diamond on balsa for a finish. Nothing works better. But if you are more about the process than the result, then maybe you will like naturals.
IMHO natural stones have a nice sound, but if you start a progression of purely natural stones on a dull razor, it will take A HECK OF A LOT OF TIME. Finishers is another thing, but using exclusively naturals, that's tough.
Start with synthetics, and finish on a natural. Which one? You'll be the judge of that. Do you have any pals in your general vicinity that own hones? Ask them nicely to let you try some.
And if you're new, get a cheap razor and learn the how to get it sharp, before trying and/or destroying your good ones.
I have to admit that regardless of all the talk about caveman methods when I have given people help with honing I don't do it with my Arks (which would be my recommendation) I start them with the old stand by Norton combo stones. 220/1k, 4k/8k.
I once had a friend who was a professor of anthropology and he told me that people romanticize about going to the Amazon to live with the Indian tribes or traveling with Bedouins and loved to ask him questions about it but the talking about it was a lot more fun than actually doing it.
Billy Gibbons supposedly was talking to BB King about guitar strings and brought up hearing about players like King using heavy guage for a fatter sound. BB supposedly told him no man I use light guage strings. Why do you want to do all that work?
Probably the most realistic way to approach using nats in a progression is get comfortable using synths with a natural finisher then when you are comfortable doing that work backward toward nats in earlier stages. I still maintain that arks are the way...just sayin'.
If, after that, you really want a challenge then try to do a one stone progression.
IMO honing on naturals is not more difficult than or different from honing on synthetics. Naturals may be slower and have a character of their own but other than that: honing is sharpening a piece of metal by moving it across a flattended stone.
There is also the case with the composition/quality of the stone. Japanese ones are among the most famous, for the reason I'm writing about; Inclusions. Some naturals are extraordinarily pure from them, and for some you're flipping a coin and hope for the best. Not to say that all synthetics are pure of that, but the quality control is better from a man or a machine than leaving it to nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Just learn to use whatever stone you get, Glen said it best. Look at his signature. Natural or syn, if you learn it, then you will produce great edges, so far I haven’t been shown any stone that gives me a better edge than my Naniwa 12k. And I’ve had them all. I learned it and stuck with it till I got it down pat. And like Marty said, stropping is where you will make superb edges and to make it last. So jnat, ark, Thuringia, or syn, just learn it and you will be rewarded with great edges
Learn to strop, you may not need to be so good with a hone, lots of compounds out there that will give a smoking edge, ever hear of CBN?
Quite so. As far as stones go, the 12k Nanny is about as good as it gets. I like film, but it's not much "better" except that you never have to lap your film plate, so it's always consistently flat. I use my Naniwa progression quite a bit. It's very straightforward and consistent as long as you have a good lapping method.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
At any rate, whatever the beginner begins with, should be stuck with until mastery occurs. Hopping around from one style to the next can waste YEARS. Not to mention $s. Lots of $s.
Yes lapping film is a little easier, buttttttttt,, I last lapped my 12k 3 years ago, all my razors ever need is 3-4 laps up and down on a dry 12k every 10 or so shaves, it’s a maintenance thing, but could go 100 my leather work is quite good, English linen , leaded strop then my 75 year old shell strop made by the master in Japan, I know I can shave a lot but it’s habit cause in the beginning I didn’t strop as well and shaving technique wasn’t great
That is exactly why, in a previous post in this thread, I recommended that Jnats be bought from a reputable vendor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
Agree. That is why, with exception of the vintage coticule I inherited, the cotis I have purchased all came from Ardennes in Belgium with matching slurry stones. Their quality control and customer service are exemplary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
My personal preference is to use diamond plate and synthetic stones for repair and bevel setting and then to go to one of my coticule/BBW combination stones. I know those stones after having used them for years and feel comfortable relying on them to maintain and touch up an edge.
The coti edges I get are quite lovely shaving edges. If a razor seems to need it, I refresh the edge using the coti or CrOx on a paddle strop.
I have three finish “polishers” that I use to try to get that little bit more from my coti edges, but usually that’s just me trying to see what I can do as a hobbyist.
If someone were to ask me which natural stone I would suggest they start with, I would without hesitation say a combination BBW/coticule. With slurry you can start where a 2k - 4K synth leaves off and take it all the way to an 8K shave ready edge ONCE YOU KNOW THE STONE. You only need one slurry stone (usually included with the purchase of the stone), not a progression of naguras and you can raise slurry on a BBW or a coticule using a diamond plate if you don’t have a slurry stone. They won’t break the bank and the coti can be used as a great barber hone for maintenance.
My 2¢.
I got a translucent Arkansas in the mail today, and I'm already very happy with it.
You can experiment with stone face finishes, finish one side with 400-600 wet and dry and the other to 600-1k and burnish. Mark the side of the stone with a sharpie so you know which is which and you have an Ark finishing progression.
Also experiment with honing solution, soap, Ballistol and Smith’s and also using pressure.
Micro bevels are another area of options, with Kapton and even Scotch tape. There is a lot of great information on finishing with Arks.
Really pretty hard to screw up because they polish so slowly, but the edges can be exceptional.
Glad you are seeing improvement already.
Oh yeah it's definitely a noticeable difference in sharpness. When I do the test where you cut your arm hair halfway up from the skin I can literally hear the difference between having the Arkansas and not
I'm late to reply here, but I was going to suggest you try a translucent or a black hard Arkansas, as you said you had some lapidary experience. There is something nice in observing how these stones change in quality as they are lapped finer and finer. I exclusively hand-hold in honing razors, which makes use of smaller stones like 6" x 2" or 5" x 2" easier. Smaller dimensions mean lower cost than the big bench hones.
I actually started out with an Arkansas sequence with razors. Because they work slowly, I was less inclined to wear down the razor as I could see my mistakes as they developed. This also allowed me a bit more pressure at the beginning. Started out with soft Ark > hard Ark > hard black sequence to start, but later switched to a No. 1 Washita followed by a translucent, always with oil.
After a few years of this, and becoming proficient, I switched to a 1k/3k synth combo (or a 1k > 2k > 5k synth progression) followed by a coticule and ending with Welsh or Vermont slate. The synths work more quickly at the early stages, at the price of not varying the pressure so much.
All of this presupposes that one is seeking to reset the bevel on up or restore junk razors to shave-ability (I find a fine DMT useful here). If only touching up an edge, an occasional visit to a finishing stone should be all that's needed.
I think you're off to a good start with a translucent. Smooth one side and use it as a finisher or for touch-ups. Lap the other side coarse and see how that changes things used with pressure in starting out. Washita No. 1s can be found for cheap as everyone is looking for lily whites (a very nice stone too). I find these Washitas better than, say, a soft Ark, the Lily White being as versatile as a translucent, but at a more aggressive stage. I have also gone from start to finish with a fine India followed by a translucent Ark.
A trans is a good buy. Glad that's working well for you. As said the large ones can be pricey but you can get by with a 4"X2" especially if it's 1/2" thick which keeps it further from your palm and fingers if you are palm honing.
I love everything about Arks: the way they feel when you hone, the frosty edge, the edge feel. They are even more durable than a lot of stones, especially synths. I have to glue my 12k sharptonn back together because it was leaning at a 45° drying on the tile tub surround and it slid out and fell flat. Cracked the dad blame thing right in half.:banghead:
That trans should last you a lifetime or more. I got my start with Arks from heirlooms my dad had for decades.
Honestly, I don't appreciate the Arkansas novaculite hones. I mean, they'll do their job, eventually, but I would first suggest getting a Chinese finisher, a Thuringian, a Coticule or something that actually removes steel, before I suggest a black or translucent Ark.
But it seems that the choice has already been made. Why not ride with it?
Arks do take a little investment of time but I think they are worth it. No other piece of rock that I have used has a character quite like them and I guess you either like it enough to put the time in or you don't. The OP will sort that out for himself but I don't think you can go wrong with a trans ark.
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I am glad some of you are having success with the Arkies. I have not been so lucky. My failure was due to not lapping the surface of the Arkie first.
Mine were smoother than glass. I literally put thousands of laps on a razor with no discernable change in the edge. I did that with both a black and a translucent and several different razors. When I resume honing I will first lap the Arkies.
I think it has to do with how they're lapped and the stone being employed. My take is that if there is a noticeable generation of swarf to the naked eye, then change to the edge is being effected. Hard to see this on a black hard Arkansas; wiping the blade gently with a paper towel from time to time does the trick, particularly if used with oil. If a translucent has been lapped coarsely, it's noticeable on the stone.
With Arks lapped to 1500x-2000x, I've often thought that they may be doing more burnishing of the edge than actual sharpening. This would account for some of the outrageously high grit ratings that folks sometimes give to them when used after very high (10k+ JIS) synthetic hones. I imagine that here they are working to correct over-honing or that the stone is functioning like a strop used with an edge-leading pass.
Take those hard Arks back to about 220 sic and you should see a difference. They don't need to be burnished so much at that level of grit. They are fine enough as it is.
That's all the further I've taken mine, Paul. Then I burnish them, if I want.
Back in the beginning of honing razors, I only had one stone ( 1k ). I let the swarf build up on the stone as I honed. It would slow down the metal removal and increase the polishing effect, as I progressed.
Not as comfortable as a full progression of today, but not bad for a kid that was only 17 yrs old at the time.
Sometimes ya have to be smarter than the rock. :rofl2:
I have posted the following comments before. I can’t remember where I found them, it might even have been in a thread on SRP. Sometimes it’s just easier to repost than to locate the original.
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If you are going to be slurry honing on a very hard stone (raising slurry with a hard stone) it's counter-productive to polish the stone too much. It will only make raising a slurry much more difficult. Best is to flatten the stone with a diamond plate then raise a couple consecutive slurries with the rubbing stone and wash them away. Raise the next one and hone with it. This is for finishing only after something like 8k. If you want to try it from a little earlier in the progression you can go to 2k then raise a diamond plate slurry and hone on that, then a rubbing stone slurry and hone on that. Repeat by raising another rubbing stone slurry if necessary until you get your finished edge. On most stones the last one should be a fairly thin slurry, not too thick. Oh, and the radius you have on the corner of the stone should be sufficient. Only polish a very hard stone surface if you are going to use it without slurry. Otherwise you are better off letting the stone go to its natural state during slurry honing.