Looking for the perfect hone setup.

I've been lurking for quite some time and I'd like to say what a welcoming and informative environment you guys have created here at SRP. I'm getting more and more interested in honing my own razors and I am looking for the ideal setup, regardless of price. Also, I want a few extra hones to play around and experiment with to get a better feel for what I really like. Right now, I am thinking of buying the Norton 4k/8k (Thinking of substituting the DMT 8K for the Norton, opinions on this would be much appreciated), a DMTC for lapping, a Chinese water stone, a shapton 16K glass stone, and a few paddle strops for diamond pastes and chromium oxide. That being said, I am really interested in the Belgian coticules, the vintage eschers, the Thruingians, etc. As of now I am thinking my progession could be Norton 4K/8K, Chinese water stone, Shapton 16K, and then pasted strops if I want to take the edge further (Please correct me if this is a flawed progression). I am not adamantly against just going for an entire Shapton glass stone progression, but I feel the abpve setup would give me more options and experimenting capabilites. Also, I am intrigued by the Shapton 30K, but feel it might have little utility becuase I'm unsure if I would want a blade that sharp and even if I did I feel it could be achieved with the pastes. All opinions are welcome. I can't wait to hear some replies.

Oh, Hank, our budding little HADdict. You're theoretical progression of the Norton, 12K, 16K and paddles would work fine for virtually all razors that don't need extensive bevel work.

Advice: Gradually ease into this. I would actually discourage you from taking out a loan for the whole Shapton line right off the bat. There is a tendency in our honing interests here to want the "ultimate" (there is no one ultimate honing progression or system, there are multiple variations that can fit that bill) honing system. And, there is a greater tendency among new users to want the "ultimate" system with some underlying thought that the "ultimate" system will have you honing killer edges almost automatically (as if the stones will be so good, they'll override the user's honing inexperience). Technique is king and is absolutely required regardless of the stones used. I'm not even close to where I want to be on technique mainly because I don't have the dad gum time to devote to honing as I'd like to.

I guess my point is, if a person has never honed a razor, the Shaptons will not do any better for you IMO than a 4/8, 12K, 16K and maybe chrome ox would. And, even after you perfect technique, you may find for YOUR face, a 12K and chrome ox may give YOU a more comfortable overall shaving edge than a 16K or 30K would. Probably not, but I'm just sayin. Wink Wink.

I'm intrigued by the DMT D8EE, but I don't own one. I have owned the Norton 4/8.

Start out slow and inexpensively and resist the temptation to go hog wild. Save that for the time when you've successfully honed a few razors and unleash your HAD at that time; heck, at that time you won't be able to control it anyway.;)

Chris L

Hank,
first, welcome to SRP.

Sounds to me like you're up for some exciting times, seeking out all those different hones and stones.
I think you've made your homework well, 'cause what you wrote makes good sense.
All hones you mentioned have a good reputation for use on razors, so if you can spare the money, you can't go wrong with either one of them.
Whether a particular progression leads to a premium edge or not, not only depends on the quality of the chosen hones and the skillful application, but also on how well the different hones work together.

Allow me to clarify this with an example:
You can do your low grit sharpening (often called bevel setting) on a Norton 4K, or a Shapton 4K, or a DMT 1200, or a Belgian Coticule used with slurry. Either one of those hones will do the job well, but the results will be different. The Norton 4K will overhone an edge if you try to push it too far, so you'll have to stop on time. The Shapton will go a bit further and max out at a certain level. The DMT will go less far and maxes out on that level. The coticule will leave, by far, the smoothest edge of those 4, but also the less keenest, because it rounds the tip of the edge a bit when used with slurry. In consequence, the Shapton edge only requires polishing (smoothing out the scratch marks) for a decent shaveready edge, while the other 3 needs further refining. Now, suppose, for the sake of our example, that we would proceed to a Coticule with only water, after either one of the above hones. It would work well on the Shapton 4K edge, 'cause a coticule with water is a superior polisher. It would not work so well on the other edges, because that same coticule with water, is much too slow to actually refine the edge further, once it has smoothened out the scratch marks of the preceding hone. I believe the Chinese 12K behaves pretty much the same. One of the big advantages of the Shapton hones is that they keep refining the edge all the way up to the 30K.
For that reason, if money is not an issue and you would like to experiment, I recommend the Shaptons 4K, 8K and 16K and add a few of the naturals, that you mentioned in your post.
I 've been around here for almost a year now (had to re-join after the big forum crash in January), and I've witnessed that most guys that made swift progress in honing, took the Shapton route. (I didn't, but I haven't made swift progress either:))

Just some thoughts on this matter,

Best regards,
Bart.

Hank,

Just to confuse you some more.

The use of a hone has as much to do with the person using it as anything else.

Each and every hone you try will require that you learn how to use it.

I for one do not subscribe to the theory that the more you spend on hones, the better the quality of shave you will get.

Chromium Oxide on leather is equivalent to a 50.000 grit hone and it costs very little and works well in inexperienced hands,

Newspaper is 50, 000 grit or thereabouts and it is cheaper and also works incredibly well.

Most of us finish at 12000 grit and give a final polish on a chromium oxide.

The shaves are just fantastic.

I have found any sharper ( and you can go sharper) is totally unnecessary.
It's a bit like DE blades. Many DE shavers don't want or use the sharpest blades. They find them uncomfortable.

To be honest, the more I have learnt about this straight razor game, the more I have come to the conclusion that the way you strop your razor has a bigger impact on how your shave will feel than any hone. It will also give the final sharpness that you feel on your skin whatever hone the razor came off last.

Welcome to the forum. Great advice from Chris and Bart and more will no doubt follow. Sounds like Chris hit the nail on the head in saying another HADdict. :D I am a relative noob and a certified HADdict myself . I would recommend Norton 1K, 4K and 8K in single grits. Cost a bit more for the singles but you get a lot more stone and you don't have to soak the 8. The Nortons are IMO and in the general consensus easier to learn on and they do a good job.

I have the Shapton Pro series 1K through 30K and having had the chance to try a 16K glass stone I am really glad I went with the Pro series. Whether you go with the glass or the Pro what you read about the Shaptons being for a more advanced honer is true in my experience.

I am just starting to get the hang of them after many razors and much honing. Add to that I wouldn't be there yet if I had not had real time honing sessions with forum member and IMO honemiester The Topher. If he hadn't shown me his techniques I would still be feeling around in the dark.

I also have coticules, Eschers and Thuringans as well as the Scotch hones, Dalmore Blue and Tam 'O Shanter. Any of them will give you a good shave ready edge once you know what you are doing. I am also one of I guess a minority that doesn't care for DMTs for honing. YMMV. I haven't messed with the diamond pastes yet but I highly recommend the Chrom Ox. Best of luck on the journey and as Lynn is fond of saying, "Have fun".

I'm going to expnand on what Chris L said, and try to narrow down my recommendations, of course my options could be replaced with other type of stones.

To create a bevel I'd recommend a DMT8E (1200 mesh)
To touch up razors a Yellow belgian coticule w/ a cotigura stone to make slurry if neccesary
Then I use a 1 Micron 3M Abrasive film followed by a Chromium Oxide .5 micron paddle strop

This is it. You can make it more complicated if you want but the results will be similar.

Of course you'll need a good Tony Millerstrop to compliment your setup

Good luck

Hank,I think you are on the right track. I've tried alot of hones over the years. All have worked. Now, I've really grown fond of the Shapton Glass Hones. Currently, I use the 3K,6K,8K,and 16K. With the 8 and 16 used to keep my rotation...well,in rotation. I also have been using pasted balsa strops and have had good results.

Bottom line, there are alot of roads one can take to get to the same destination. No matter what you have or can afford-you have to master the honing technique. Throwing money at hones won't make the razor shave you any better....

I'm new to honing razors, but I have a lot of experience sharpening knives -- which is a related, but different skill.

I'd have to repeat what others said -- sharpeners/hones are a matter of personal choice: I know chefs who wouldn't give up their arkansas stones for the world, or their old grease-and-oil soaked threeway sharpener. Some swear by their convex bevels, others by their single-sided japanese bevels. I'm sure the same goes for honemasters. It really is what works for you.

Having said all that, if I were to be asked what to buy to start honing razors, I'd recommend Shapton glassstones -- specifically the 4k and 8k, and that you either buy or make a paddle strop with chromium oxide (in addition to a TM strop, of course!). If the glassstones work for you, you can buy the 16k for extreme polishing, and the 1k for resetting a bevel on vintage razors. I'd probably recommend a stone holder of some sort, which makes sharpening much easier -- or rather, makes it easier given my sharpening technique. Oh yeah, and the DMT120 for flattening.

I prefer the Shaptons because I find the polish higher for equivalent stones, and for me, the feedback is better (that is, you have a better idea when you're sharpened to the highest level on that stone, which is when you want to stop, before you create a burr). The shaptons are also easier to set up -- no soaking (and waiting) necessary.

On the other hand, the combo 4k/8k is the standard, and much cheaper. And it works well.

For full disclosure: I have a set of Norton stones (500 to arkansas hard translucent) and glassstones (only to 8k, although the 16k will be coming sometime soon. Quite frankly, the 30k seems extreme given the price, but talk to me after I get the 16k). As I said, I'm new to razors, but have a lot of experience with (kitchen) knives -- mine and everyone else's.

It seems that all stones lead to hone, if you know the route (technique), which is much more important than the particular stone.

cheers, and good luck,

cass

A thread you might want to folow and read.... http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...torations.html


Hmmmm I just read the statement "regardless of price" let me say one word then SHAPTON......
if it truely is regardless of price drop the $$$ and get the whole setup.. Even if it isn't for you, it's not like you can't recoup the $$$ in the classifieds later anyway.......

Thanks for the really helpful replies. I'm now leaning toward the Shapton Glassstone route, but I have a few follow up questions. If a go with the Shapton route, what is the lowest grit that I need for bevel setting on a typical Ebay razor? Also, one other question about the Shaptons. Are you really getting the max out of the Shapton 16K if you jump to it directly from the Shapton 8K? Mathematically the jump makes sense, but it seems that this far into the polishing phase that a razor might benefit from some middle ground in between the jump. I have read opinions that state in the case of jumping from the Shapton 8K to the 16K that the full potential of the 16K is not realized. Doubtlessly the 16K will improve the edge after a jump from 8K, but would the final edge be better if I used a coticule, Chinese 12k, or something else in 10K-12K range in between the 8K to 16K Shaptons?

-Hank

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

Thanks for the really helpful replies. I'm now leaning toward the Shapton Glassstone route, but I have a few follow up questions. If a go with the Shapton route, what is the lowest grit that I need for bevel setting on a typical Ebay razor? Also, one other question about the Shaptons. Are you really getting the max out of the Shapton 16K if you jump to it directly from the Shapton 8K? Mathematically the jump makes sense, but it seems that this far into the polishing phase that a razor might benefit from some middle ground in between the jump. I have read opinions that state in the case of jumping from the Shapton 8K to the 16K that the full potential of the 16K is not realized. Doubtlessly the 16K will improve the edge after a jump from 8K, but would the final edge be better if I used a coticule, Chinese 12k, or something else in 10K-12K range in between the 8K to 16K Shaptons?

-Hank

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If you are talking about fleabay razors, then you want to have at least a 1K hone for setting the bevel.

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

Thanks for the really helpful replies. I'm now leaning toward the Shapton Glassstone route, but I have a few follow up questions. If a go with the Shapton route, what is the lowest grit that I need for bevel setting on a typical Ebay razor? Also, one other question about the Shaptons. Are you really getting the max out of the Shapton 16K if you jump to it directly from the Shapton 8K? Mathematically the jump makes sense, but it seems that this far into the polishing phase that a razor might benefit from some middle ground in between the jump. I have read opinions that state in the case of jumping from the Shapton 8K to the 16K that the full potential of the 16K is not realized. Doubtlessly the 16K will improve the edge after a jump from 8K, but would the final edge be better if I used a coticule, Chinese 12k, or something else in 10K-12K range in between the 8K to 16K Shaptons?

-Hank

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It works fine that way, really it does, honest , I swear!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

Also, one other question about the Shaptons. Are you really getting the max out of the Shapton 16K if you jump to it directly from the Shapton 8K?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

It works fine that way, really it does, honest , I swear!!!!!!

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+1 with what Glen said. You'll see how fast the 16K starts leaving swarf trails after a small number of passes and you'll realize it takes 8k bevels to a new level in short order. There's no need for anything in between.

BTW, I just noticed today that there's now a Shapton 3K ceramic on glass stone. Brad aka Icedog is going to have to make a 2nd version of his way cool Shapton box!:cool:

Chris L

ChrisL,I too have succumbed to the Shapton glass H.A.D.. I just bought the 3K. Now I don't use my Norton's at all. I have the 3K,6K,8K and 16K Shapton's and I'm not turning back!

One thing I have noticed though. As of late, I have began taping the spines of my razors with ONE layer of tape. There is a HUGE difference in the amount of swarf developed on the shapton's not honing the spine. The tape REALLY improves the stones feedback and my results have never been better.

I was also considering a storage solution to protect my hones. I realized I had an unused PELICAN camera case, that I am currently modifying to turn into a "hone box".

Another option worth consideration imho is to stop on the 8000 and proceed to natural stones.

Maybe if I were starting over completely I might get(shapton) 1, 3, 6. I've been wanting to try Japan-tool's sigma power brand , so I would finish off synthetics with that 10,000.

Then you might has well snag onto 400ish and 1200 diamond plates. Both the naniwa and takenoko 8000 are great stones-you can add these in later

For naturals 3 or two european finish stones; a suita and nakayama or two and shoubu(shobu- sp?sorry it's late:)

Now that is starting to look alittle more like a Perfect hone set up. Hank Williams said: "regardless of price"

Well heck, the perfect honing setup is dead easy, buy one each of everything and get two of the ones you really like! :roflmao

Conventional wisdom would dictate doubling the grit for each step as in 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k and 30k in the Shapton line. Of course, not everyone needs to go to such extremes. .5k, 1k, 3k and 6k would be a very nice set for knives and most woodworking tools. You can break the steps down finer but it won't save you any time as you're working less time on each stone but more stones.

Regarding what grit to use to set bevels, I think the advice from the Shapton site is quite valid (with any honing system) even though they are talking about woodworking tools and I quote here:

"The most important concept when using the Shapton system is achieving consistancy at a given grit level before moving up to the next finer stone. At the 2000 grit level, your tool should be perfectly shaped. It is ineffective to attempt to reshape your tool at any finer grit level. If you have built a good foundation at the coarse grit level, very little work will be required at the finer grit levels."

Jumping from 8k to a 0.5 micron pasted strop is valid, it will improve the edge significantly, but that does not mean it works the same as going to a 16k hone first. The end results will be different, not that the results of either aren't good or usable, just different.

Regards

Kaptain "Me? H.A.D.? Whatever are you talking about?" Zero

Hank,I'd like to make one other point. When I first started honing, I would consistently "feel" the blade-repeatedly doing the thumb test,finger nail test and whatever the "sharpness" test of the day was.

TRY NOT TO DO THAT. I found that after all the work on the hones, I was DAMAGING the edge trying to determine how SHARP it was-instead of stropping it and SHAVING.

Shaving is the ONLY way to determine your progress and the closer you get to finishing the razor, the more the edge is finer and more fragile. Touching the edge with anything but your face,at least IMO, is a source of frustration.:rant:

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

Well heck, the perfect honing setup is dead easy, buy one each of everything and get two of the ones you really like! :roflmao



Kaptain "Me? H.A.D.? Whatever are you talking about?" Zero

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hehee yeah That sums it up nicely. Though to be clear, when I say a couple european, couple nakayama; I don't mean the same type stone.

On the other hand I can also agree with the short system guys. A minimal selection of the right pieces will get you a job well done. It's just a different mindset I suppose.

For me this is the clencher- never waste time waiting for the perfect set-up for anything before starting. The most important thing (imho) is to get what you can get and get going. ASAP you could spend this morning at your local antique shops, flea market. until you find a razor, get a glass front picture frame for 99 cents; swing by the auto supply for a variety pack of sandpaper and be clean shaven come Monday morning:cool:

More great information as usual guys, yet I still have a few more questions. I know Shapton has the 2K, 3K, and 6K in its lineup, but how much utility would these stones have to me? What stones do most of you guys use when you go the Shapton glass stone route? I was thinking of buying the 1K, 4K, 8K, and 16K. Would this be an appropriate progression for razors?

-Hank

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

More great information as usual guys, yet I still have a few more questions. I know Shapton has the 2K, 3K, and 6K in its lineup, but how much utility would these stones have to me? What stones do most of you guys use when you go the Shapton glass stone route? I was thinking of buying the 1K, 4K, 8K, and 16K. Would this be an appropriate progression for razors?

-Hank

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Yes it would. I would recommend the Shapton Professional series 2K, 5K,,8K and 15K. You get the same quality of hone with 15mm thickness as opposed to 5mm and the case it comes in serves as a base to hold the stone while you hone and store it when it isn't in use. I have used a friend's 16K glass and it isn't better then the 15K pro IMHO. You can see them here . Good service and prompt response to inquiries or problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

More great information as usual guys, yet I still have a few more questions. I know Shapton has the 2K, 3K, and 6K in its lineup, but how much utility would these stones have to me? What stones do most of you guys use when you go the Shapton glass stone route? I was thinking of buying the 1K, 4K, 8K, and 16K. Would this be an appropriate progression for razors?

-Hank

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I don't do restoration work- so for me the 3K is as coarse as I need. The Shapton glass hones are AGGRESSIVE and will set the bevel of the hardest razor VERY easily.And if you don't FIRST establish a bevel-you are just wasting your time and wearing out the razor.

For the majority of my honing, I use the 8K and 16K most frequently. The 6K is very useful to remove small edge defects.

I also own the Norton 4/8K combo stone and the 12K Norton. All the available hones serve a purpose-its just my opinion that the Shapton glass really allow a novice to get good results in a reasonable time. They don't hone the razor for you-but they certaintly have eliminated alot of headaches. (and sore hands).

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Originally Posted by Hank Williams

More great information as usual guys, yet I still have a few more questions. I know Shapton has the 2K, 3K, and 6K in its lineup, but how much utility would these stones have to me? What stones do most of you guys use when you go the Shapton glass stone route? I was thinking of buying the 1K, 4K, 8K, and 16K. Would this be an appropriate progression for razors?

-Hank

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That's a nice selection of grits but please consider putting aside some $$ for a flattening hone, either a DMT D8C or perhaps if your wallet is deep, the Shapton Diamond Glass Lapping Plate. I use the DMT but others claim the DGLP works better. I have the 2k, 4k, 8k and 16k. I plan to maybe add the 1k and 500 some day though I do have a 1.2k DMT that serves quite well as a substitute. As has been mentioned before, doubling the grit is the conventional wisdom in selecting a series of hones such as 2, 4, 8, 16 or 1, 3, 6, 12 etc. Using half steps would work but you'll spend more time swapping stones around than actually honing. Once you establish a bevel, you move to the next finer grit and refine the scratch pattern until the coarser scratches are gone, then move to the next finer hone and do it again. With Shaptons, once the bevel is fully formed, the progression upwards to refine the scratch pattern is very quick so you'd actually be wasting time using a closer spaced set of grits.

As for the Pro vs Glass hones, the Pros are older technology... there have been reports that as they thin, they become fragile and can break. The Glass hones allow you to use every last bit of abrasive without the breaking issue and apparently are more wear resistant than the Pros. The glass hones have another advantage not thought of too much and that is the lighter weight for shipping purposes if you need to have them mailed. On the other hand, if using the glass hones on the bench, you'll probably want a holder to raise them up a bit. A shapton holder is quite pricey, generic waterstone holders work very well and cost a fraction of what the shapton holder does. Personally, I handhold all my hones, even the big 8"x3" coticule I have so it's not an issue for me. Pro or glass, you pays your money and you takes your choice... I think either will be just as good and if you keep the breakage issue in mind, you should get more mileage out of the Pros but you're gonna have to hone a whole herd of razors to wear them out!!! :eek:

Regards

Kaptain "My two cents worth, and I wouldn't pay a penny more!" Zero

Hank, the usual progression is to roughly half the grit size as you move to the next stone -- so the usual progression is 1-2-4-8, etc.

So two reflections on your post: 1. I don't think you need the 3k; 2. I do think you need some sort of lapping stone to keep your stones flat. Shapton offers its own top-of-the-line model, which is quite expensive (I use a DMT 120, which works fine).

Regarding resetting a bevel on a beat-up razor: I have worked about a half-dozen back into shaving order, (which, again, does not make me a honemeister), but only on one occasion (to work out a chip) did I go down to a 500; everything else started with 1k or higher. I should also note, and forgive me if you know this already, but you can do anything with a 1k that you can with a 500 (and so on) -- it just takes twice as long.

Best of luck with whatever you choose -- basically, they're all good!

cass

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Originally Posted by cassady

(...) but you can do anything with a 1k that you can with a 500 (and so on) -- it just takes twice as long.

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Being in a nitpicking mood today:D, I'd like to point out a small flaw in your otherwise sound advice: mathematically, it takes 4 times as long. A 10 micron abrasive particle makes a scratch with a diameter of 100 square microns. A 5 micron abrasive particle makes a scratch with a diameter of 25 square microns. Hence, it takes 4 times as long to remove the same volume of steel. It would even take 16 times as long with a particle size of 2.5 microns, and over 100 times at 1 micron.
One of the big reasons newbies often do 100's of laps on a finishing hone, and get zero result.

Slightly of topic, but I felt well worth mentioning.

still great advice, Cassady.

Best regards,
Bart.

I stand corrected!

I should have appended the advice that I give to my students: always check (and question) my math.

cheers,

cass.