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I'm debating between purchasing a Thuringian from Timbertools and getting Howard at The Perfect Edge to get me one on the ultra high grade Kosher coticules. What do you guys think would make for a better finishing stone? Or should I throw both options out and look for a vintage coticule/Thuringian?
-Hank
If you ask Howard he will tell you that all of his coticules perform equally well, and if you spend the extra 30% more for a Kosher Grade you are paying for the appearance. He only purchases "select grade" from the mine and all of his stones that I have used have performed equally well for me. I would recommend that you purchase one of his normal select grade 6X2 stones which will give you a great stone for a very reasonable price and then go from there. After that the quality of the razor will make a much larger difference in the resulting edge and quality of shave than the very small differences among other ultra high quality stones and the variations within the same high quality stone type imo.
What are your other hones?
Thuringians are nice finishing stones but Coticules cut faster, so the best choice would depend on what else you are using.
Can't comment on the thuringian, but I know that the additional fee for a kosher hone is for how it looks.
Kosher coticules ar euniform of color, and as close to white as possible if I recall correctly.
They don't necessarily perform any better than howards other coticules.
I asked him the same thing once, but I ended up buying a select grade coticule which works very well.
Ok so I now know that the Kosher coticule is a bit of a waste, so if I do decide to buy a coticule it will be a normal select grade from Howard. I know that this is opening up another can of worms, but how much better are the vintage coticules/thuringians compared to the new ones?
-Hank
Different people are going to have different opinions and advice. I have honed a lot of razors on a lot of high quality stones, and my opinion based on my personal experiences is that once you are at the really high quality high grit stone level (and dial the razor in on that stone) the differences among razors (steel, heat treatment, and grind) will make a much more substantial difference in the resulting edge than the variations among the high quality stones. Howard's "new" coticules have worked just as well as the vintage coticules that I have used; I have never tried the "new" escher/thuringian type hones so I can't comment on them. I say new with quotation marks because all the coticules that you can get are very very old (we are talking many many thousands of years) regardless of when they were actually removed from the mine. Furthermore I am not so sure that I could tell you the difference between a razor that was properly honed to perfection on a quality coticule and a razor that was honed on another high quality stone like an Escher, Nakayama, or Shapton. Maybe some people can, but the differences are usually pretty small and could be attributed to someone's expectations going into the shave. On the other hand I can easily tell the difference between different types of properly honed razors by shaving with them. Some just take a better edge than others because of many factors, I think the least of which is whether the coticule that the razor was honed on was vintage or "new". Just my .02; others are likely going to feel somewhat differently.
David
P.S. Another great finishing stone that you might want to look into is a Nakayama from Old_School. I like mine so much that I bought two back-ups ;)
The most likely difference between new and vintage could be that the quarry owners could be more picky about what they sold. These days there are a lot less mines, with a lot less produce so perhaps themark is set lower.
But my coticule from Howard is new, and it is a great stone. :shrug:
My 12incher is a vintage Coticule(Rob at Ardennes said it wasn't mined at his place), my little selected Coticule is new(ish)
The BIG one is harder and has more colours in it, it's no where near as flawless looking as my little selected Coticule but seems to be a much finer hone. It can cut fast though, if you use a slurry as it's surface is vast:D
The best all around stone out there is the coticule, it'll cut through the grit scratches left by nearly all of the common lower grit hones, especially if you form a slurry on it, and also polishes very nicely without the slurry.
So, a safe bet is the Coticule, it'll do the job, and well too.
True. The coticule is the most versatile of all.
Used with a thick muddy slurry, it eats away metal at a serious rate. I once took out major nicks and de-warped an edge with a coticule. In only 14 hours... :w
the slurry really makes it an allround stone, allowing you to either polish or remove metal.
Today, most of us use coticules as finishing hones, without raising a slurry. Unless a stone has inclusions of coarse and hard foreign deposits, they all perform within a fairly close range. The "Ardennes Coticule" quarry does not produce hones from raw rocks with such defects.
In the old days, people used coticules for tasks we nowadays usually perform with coarser synthetic hones such as those produced by Norton and DMT. Speed was a major factor for assessing quality. Coticule is extracted out of the undergound of a rather small area in the Ardennes region in Belgium. There are a few main veins that each consist of several layers. The layers all have their own capabilities, and even within a layer, there are differences. Some layers were not used for the production of hones, in the old days, because the raw coticule they contain is too slow for anything more than polishing. Some veins were "richer" on good coticule than others. The most reputed mines had access to the most reputed veins.
"Ardennes Coticule" is quarrying former mining pits, rescueing raw coticule that was too difficult to extract with the old mining methods. I can only assume that they also exploit layers that in the old days were cosidered inferior due to the aforementioned lack of speed. I have seen coticules that were avid finishers, but by any means too slow for serious steel removal.
When I visited the quarry a few months ago, they had recently hit the bottom of the former mining pits. This opens perspectives for extracting coticule from previously untouched layers. Rob Celis from Ardennes Coticule said they hoped for bigger pieces of rock, because of the high demand of rectangular bigger sized hones. At the moment, they have plenty of irregularly shaped "bouts", but low supply of larger hones. I also assume that we might see more of the "fast" layers in the future. Ardennes Coticule also owns a second mine, with access to formerly renowned layers, but the investment for exploiting that mine in compliance with modern safety standards is too big to be a priority, according to Rob Celis.
I have two lightning fast coticules, one is a vintage hone, the other recently purchased from Ardennes. The vintage one is so soft that it creates slurry just from honing. A property that makes it my worst finisher, 'cause loose coticule garnets have a bit of a blunting effect on the very edge of a razor. The recent coticule does not display this disadvantage, but it leaves visually (under magnification) the coarsest scratch pattern of them all. As stated before, with exception of that vintage one, they are all more than decent finishers, with only very minor differences in the final results.
If you're intrested in seeying some picture, with the full story of my visit at the quarry:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ticule+diaries
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ticule+diaries
Best regards,
Bart.
My first coticule is basically useles as a finisher, but I now use it for sharpening my kitchen knives and potato peelers. For that purpose it is ideal and it puts a wicked edge on them.
I've always found it a bit sad that the coticules are not graded before they are sold.
:OT
This is one reas I think newbies should buy coticules from Howard, or another trusted source. He checks them beforehand.
Most retail shops don't know their coticules all that well, and the shop in antwerp where I bought my first one literally sells anything that even remotely looks like a coticule: inclusions, hairline crack, veins of blue or slate, ... it's all coticule to them. :cry:
Even I as a complete noob could see the difference. When I asked, they said 'oh that doesn't matter. they will all perform equally well' :rant:
Based on what I saw and heard during my visit, they most certainly don't just turn every piece of rock they dig up into a hone, at Ardennes Coticule. They invest quite a bit of time and experience into the triage of the raw stones. Not all inclusions are problematic for the finished hone's performance. As a matter of fact, a few of the best layers show inclusions with high mangane content, which shows up as black dots or lines in the pale white surface of the coticule. This is often considered a mark of quality, rather than a flaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
The different coticule layers all have names. Rob Celis mentioned plans for a labeling system that would make it possible to purchase a hone from a certain layer in the future. Today, on some hones directly purchased from the quarry, they have noted the layer name in pencil on the yellow side of the hone.
I don't think Ardennes Coticule ships hones that are sub par, but that of course depends on the definition of "sub par". These are natural products, there will be slight differences between every single one of them. Like any company, an accidental glitch in the system is possible. Knowing Maurice and Rob as very forthcoming people, I'm sure they would replace such a defective hone.
Respectfully Bruno, as long as you keep trying to disclose the "Koordenwinkel" razor and cutlery shop in Antwerp as ignorant and an almost fraudulent bussiness, I shall try to speak in defence of those people. I am in no way affiliated with the owners, but I have come to know the Koordenwinkel as one of those increasingly rare bussinesses with a true heart. They have a huge and genuine interest in their products and their costumers. Maybe a weird attribute for todays store owner, but they also have a vision. It may not always reflect the general ideas advocated on SRP (something they are aware of), but Robert Chevalier actually shaves with a straight razor for over twenty years and so do numerous of his customers and attendees of the straight shaving and honing courses he hosts. (for absolute clarity, I own a copy of Chevalier's shaving manual, but never followed one of his courses).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I don't expect that a store owner personally checks every product he sells. I do expect that he deals with complaints on a one on one basis. I'm sure the Koordenwinkel has a fine customer service. I know they have a free honing service, even on heirloom razors not originally sold by them.
I have great respect for your vast knowledge about straight razors, Bruno. But those people are trying to make an honest living. The SRP forum is read a lot in Belgium and Holland, also by non-members. The Koordenwinkel is a cosy little store, and I 'd advice anyone visiting Antwerp to check it out.
Bart.
I don't remember if the man was named robert, or if robert was his partner.
But the man I talked to was convinced that DOVO razors come shaveready from the factory, that hairlines don't matter in stones, never mentioned lapping in his honing course, and that the only difference between blue and yellow was that you needed to spend 2 minutes honing on the blue, whereas 1 would suffice in with the yellow.
And comparing the coticules as they come from howard with those I saw at the koordenwinkel, I can tell you that the ones from Howard that I have seen so far did not have hairlines, inclusions or veins running through them. This is because Howard checks them all before accepting a shipment, and returns those he deems not suitable for razors.
So we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Btw, if you read my mention of the koordenwinkel, you will see that I also mention that it is indeed an interesting shop with nice brushes, razors, and other interesting quality items (biggest collection of nailclippers I ever saw).
It's the subject of hones and honing about which they and I have completely different opinions.
forgot to add: I never commented on ardennes coticules (other than that ther eis no grading system currently), and I think it is a great idea to label coticules according to the layer in which they are mined. This will make it easier for retailers to inform their customers about the properties of the stone they are buying.
Indeed my friend,
let's agree to disagree.:)
For the record:
My very first razor was a silversteel Dovo, purchased online from the Koordenwinkel.
I received a box with a seal and a note from Dovo, stating that the razor was sharpened at the factory and ready to go. I also got Robert's straight shaving manual, a strop, a brush and soap. I had not yet discovered SRP at that time, and during my first month I learned the basics of straight razor shaving. I must have liked it, because it quickly became a passionate hobby.
I like to think that my self honed razors today are keener, but the Dovo out the factory certainly was shaveready.
A few months ago I bought a mammut tusk Dovo as a birthday present for a very good friend, who also happens to be a straight razor shaver. I did apply a just a couple of CrO laps, but even without it, that razor was absolutely shaveready. Possibly two flukes.
But I don't think so. It sometimes seems that half of the newbies that buy a honed by honemeister razor from classicshaving or another source seem to doubt its initial shavereadiness. Again, I don't think so. I think stropping malpractice, lack of shaving knowledge, lack of skill, hyped expectations.
Robert Chevalier hones with a coticule. I believe his method is based on what he learned during a visit at Dovo. I saw him do it on the counter of the shop, for a waiting customer that brought in his razor for resharpening. He refreshes the bevel by means of honing on a large coticule with slurry. Every now and then, he rinses of the slurry, adds fresh water and checks how well the water runs up the edge. If necessary, he raises a slurry again and continues the job. When satisfied, he runs the edge over a piece of wetted horn (something he sais he picked up at Dovo) and goes to a paddle strop with red Dovo paste. He refines the edge with a number of laps, checking with a TPT regularly and finishes on linen and leather. His razors pass the HHT and they are shaveready, albeit not ultra-keen. He does not seem to think highly of such ultra-keen edges that often last only a few shaves.
Sure, one can make honing much more complicated than that, something I personally like doing in a continuing quest for extremely sharp, yet reasonably lasting edges.
I have both coticules with, and without inclusions and veins running through. I have found no evidence that those impurities interfere with honing. As a matter of fact, one of my favorites is a pink coticule with some mean looking impurities. (see picture, it's the bottom right one)
Sorry for the hijack, Hank.
On topic, IMHO, "kosher" tells nothing about the honing capabilities of a coticule. They only look great and have a zen-like purity about them. Regardless of cosmetic grading, if you want a finisher, a hard coticule can be just a tad better than a soft one. For rapid stock removal on a slurry it generally is the other way round. But either way, on the finisher front, I find the differences extremely small and only noticeable if you try to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the stone.
Best regards,
Bart.
Personally I like the hard stones for finishing.
A soft coticule (sample size of 5 coticules) releases garnets easily, so there is always fresh abrasive. Which is good for removing metal, but not for polishing.
Of course, most stones are somewhere in between of hard and soft.
Hey, we agree after all!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
:nj
Bart.