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Itching for a finer stone than my UF Spyderco (easy to find) I'm looking at shapton and Belg coticule. Most say the coticule (yel) is about 8000 grit, some say 12000. Right now my repertoire is the spyderco's finished on UF (6000-8000 in my estimate), would it make sense to purchase the coticule, or the 16000 shapton's?, I always finish with Alu OX- on leather, then strop.
My vote would be for the coticule as it is such a versatile stone or better yet if you can swing it get 'em both. :D
Why not both! Actually I think you will find that the yellow is as Jimmy described it, more versatile, with slurry its a fast cutter, with water only it really smooths out a blade. You would have to get several other sythetic stones to replace the belgian yellow.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I have both as well as Spyderco's Fine & UF and I reach for my natural combination coticule 75% of the time. My Spyderco's are collecting dust.
Hmm, lets see..how generous do I want to be to all the kids this years (4 of them all grown up). Coticule AND shapton for me, less presents for them...of course they could buy one as a present for me...NOT. Oh well, I figured that BOTH would be the answer, but I guess Santa says Coticule first!. Then when the dusts settles -shapton .Thanks guys!
BTW- $80 stone holder?, $180 water basin? $280 diamond glass!! what justifies those prices?? I can understand the $99 for the 16K but near $300 for the 30K and then some for the support gear! are these things industrial standards?
The Shapton stone holder is a great piece of equipment. It is 2 1/4" tall and very heavy and stable. I don't have the pond. I use a folded towel under the holder and a spray bottle for water. As for lapping I use a fine (red) DMT to lap both Shapton's & Coticule's.
I have both the shapton and coticule but you can't compare both imo. They both target a different grit range. The Coticule is very versatile and the Shapton is an excellent finishing stone before hitting the cro-ox or strop. Off ourse you can take it even further with the 30K shapton or Jap. Naturals.
The UF is considered to be a higher grit size around the 12-14K. So the coticule would be your best bet.
I think the Spyderco UF is listed at around 6000 grit, which some says is actually higher. That is why I am considering a finishing stone to see if I can refine the edge even further. I am leaning towards coticules because of versitality (sounds like one hone that can almost do it all) , but am also intrigued by the higher grit stones. Of course one of them is also the escher. Now correct me if I am wrong (which I most prob. am)
but from the research I have done I have understood the following;
Coticule yellow; fast cutting with slur, very refined without slurry (just water) apprx 8000 grit. no wire edge.
Escher Blue or green: slow cutting, very refined with slurry, apprx 10,000 grit, leaves a wire serrated edge.
Shapton 16000, fast cutting slow loading, 16,000 refined edge.
Does this make the Escher or Thuringian stones less desirable with wire edges that inevitably will not last?
I don't know where you got the impression that an Escher leaves a wire edge :shrug: mine are fine finishing stones. Probably equal to 12K grit but I am not sure about that. The Eschers are great stones.
Timber tools reference to Escher "wire edge": "Known by straightedge razor shavers as the ultimate razor honing stone. Used as the final hone after shaping and sharpening with man-made or natural abrasives that produce a wire-edge, or burr in the fashion of a saw-toothed like serrated line."
I think you misread.
When I feel like an engineer I use the synthetics; when I am feeling more like a poet I use the naturals.
Shapton might invent a new stone tomorrow and then you'd be out of the clique. A coticule is simply a must have for a shaver imho
Well actually I cut and pasted the text directly from their website.:thinking:
I'm definitely leaning towards the coticule, but had wondered about the escher and that "wire edge" statement in the text of The timber tools website.
More from their website: "The Escher is NOT recommended as a final hone if you have used the natural Belgian garnet stone in advance. We are often asked about this combination use and can, at best, offer the advice that Belgian hones produce an edge without burrs, therefore that edge is already drawn to a more ideal finish, not gaining any advantage using the Escher."
Question; am I misreading the intent o the text? Maybe it should be written as Excher to smooth out Burrs created by other synthetic stones...??
the text / info seems unclear to me.
I think I'll go read some Einstein theories now..:gaah:
[quote=Stagehand;297013]The Shapton stone holder is a great piece of equipment. It is 2 1/4" tall and very heavy and stable.[/quote]
There are two things. One is a stone "case" that will hold 3 or 4? hones as well as one on the top for honing. Then there is the stone "holder" which I'm assuming is heavier and is not used for storing the hones.
Does the case do a decent job of holding a stone when honing?
Or is the holder dramatically better for that?
Is the case really convenient for storing the stones? and will it hold one or two more (like a DMT?). Can't tell but it seems it's for 3 or maybe 4 stones.
The case actually costs less than the holder. I assume it doesn't hold a stone as well/solidly as the holder but if it has value as a storage solution too... yes, I know you can just wrap your stones in a towel.
I think Kevint is right - you mis-read it. It isn't worded too clearly. I think it means that the "...man made or natural abrasives..." leave the wire edge that the escher refines. I also think that the other source quoted means that there is no advantage in using the escher after the coticule (or, indeed, vice-versa). Not that I agree with the supposition that they do they same thing! Horses for courses...
Regards,
Neil
Yeah I messed up and used my Escher blue/green after my coticule and got a really nice shave before I read that and found it wouldn't do me any good. :D I just re-read the fellow's ad and he is saying , as noted by Neil and Kevint, that the synthetics leave the wire edge or burr and the Escher polishes it off.
On the following the coticule with an Escher he is saying there is no point as the coticule leaves as fine an edge as the Escher so it is redundant. I don't think that is necessarily so. Might depend on the stone. :shrug: I know that Lynn often follows whatever stones he is using with a blue/geen Escher. I think that includes coticules, at least until the Shapton 16K came along.
The way you guys explain it it makes better text, didnt think a wire edge was that desirable on a razor...thats why we strop!... but I knew that...I really did!:w
The holder is for honing only. I don't know anything about the case. As for storage I keep the hones in the original cardboard boxes they came in. The boxes are fairly heavy and do a good job protecting the hones. Just dry them before you put them away.