Need help with Japanese hones!

Now, I can read German, and SWMBO can read spanish and some french, but I have no resource for Japanese. I am starting out making a hone line up, and I either want to get some Shaptons, or get Nortons and some good finishers (the two arguments being, better to just buy something outright than buy something else and end up spending again to upgrade, vs. since most of my work is maintenance, buy a set workable in the low ranges, but very good in the high ranges as I will mostly only be touching up)
I have a Swaty on the way, and will probably get a Welsh Dragon Tongue. I will experiment between the two as post-8ks. However, what I'm really after is an escher or a japanese stone, both for history and quality reasons. But the trouble is, its hard to bargain hunt japanese stones if you don't know the language.
On the wiki here- Hones - comparison table - Straight Razor Place Wiki- there are a few hones listed near the bottom. However, wherever I look awaseto seems the same as aweseto toishi- it seems toishi is just the word for stone. And am I correct in assuming Awaseto, awaseto, awase-to, awase-do and awasedo are all the same, just translated differently due to japanese using characters, so the phonetics gets messed up? Also, what should I be looking for as far as colour and slurry in the top stones (8k+)? Are they green with black slurry? Any other advise would be great! Thanks!
PS: can anyone tell me what the famous samurai's used?

Contact to OLD_SCHOOL i am sure he will help you out.

I don't know much about Japanese stones, but if you're looking into natural japanese ones I would recommend our very own OLD_SCHOOL as he sells ones that he tests himself. He has some for sale on his site now: Japanese whetstones

I just purchased one from him recently, and it is sure to arrive on Monday, so I cannot as of yet personally account for it's quality, although I am absolutely certain it will be fantastic.

There are other japenese stone vendors, such as Japan Tool - Natural Sharpening Stones but I personally find all of that information overwhelming. It is indeed hard to find a good place to purchase nice japanese finishers, especially if you don't speak Japanese!

But if you're serious about it, look into OLD_SCHOOL's stones, as he'll be able to answer your questions.

Nice Japanese natural stones are not cheap, but are well worth the investment if you are looking for a quality finishing stone.

EDIT: I just realized Sham beat me to it :D.

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Originally Posted by khaos

But the trouble is, its hard to bargain hunt japanese stones if you don't know the language.

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I'd advise to not bargain hunt them. In my view there's no point on gambling with expensive items, especially if all you want is one or two.
Just wait until you have the finances and the experience and buy one that is of known quality. How to find such one? Buy it from a vendor that has experience with them for sharpening razors. Both So and OLD_SCHOOL use straight razors (not sure if So uses western ones, but it probably doesn't make that much of a difference) and I'm pretty sure they'll try the stone and know how it behaves before selling it to you.

If you want to know about the stamps on these stones OLD_SCHOOL had a thread sometime ago with the main stamps. But the stamps won't tell you how the stone behaves, just where it's mined, trademarks and some quality assurances iirc. And, of course, you pay (sometimes a lot) extra for the stamps even if you need to lap them out before using the stone :)

I know he does. And I popped him an email. The thing is, I think his stones are a little out of my budget, but I think there are a couple cheaper options, I just need to figure out if they are right or not.

His stamps are very useful, but there are quite a few he doesn't have... those are mostly the stamps on his rocks... :-(

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Originally Posted by gugi

I'd advise to not bargain hunt them. In my view there's no point on gambling with expensive items, especially if all you want is one or two.

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That's a great point. It pretty much comes down to whether you want a hone collection or not. If all you want is a nice quality finishing stone, then there's no point getting a decent one when you'll probably want a nicer one down the road.

When it comes to nice stones, you pretty much get what you pay for.

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Originally Posted by khaos

The thing is, I think his stones are a little out of my budget, but I think there are a couple cheaper options, I just need to figure out if they are right or not.

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Right, and there is no way to find out without trying them yourself or have somebody with experience try them out and tell you. In my opinion that's well worth the extra cost. Hones are expensive in Japan as well and generally you get what you pay for, unless you get really lucky and the person who sold you the hones are a bit clueless themselves.

Anyway I look at it, just doesn't seem worth the risk.

For a finisher I'm only looking to spend $100, maybe pushing $150. I found a Nakayama Awase-to for $80 plus $20 shipping... so that would be nice...

You know, I guess I will stick to finding a small escher or a NOS thuringen now that I think about it. While yes, the hones vary, they are known to be good, and I can understand the language lol. The japanese will hang on the horizon I guess.

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Originally Posted by khaos

For a finisher I'm only looking to spend $100, maybe pushing $150. I found a Nakayama Awase-to for $80 plus $20 shipping... so that would be nice...

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if it is good as a finisher, yes, but if it chips your edge it's a $100 waste.

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Originally Posted by khaos

You know, I guess I will stick to finding a small escher or a NOS thuringen now that I think about it. While yes, the hones vary, they are known to be good, and I can understand the language lol. The japanese will hang on the horizon I guess.

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If you want to go the NOS or vintage thuringian route, PM Kees as he currently sells these.

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Originally Posted by khaos

You know, I guess I will stick to finding a small escher or a NOS thuringen now that I think about it. While yes, the hones vary, they are known to be good, and I can understand the language lol. The japanese will hang on the horizon I guess.

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sounds like a plan,
there's always the shapton 16k, or naniwa 12k option, or the slow chinese stone if you want a cheap natural.
but a smaller thuringian should be perfectly doable in your budget.

For 100 bucks, A shapton 16k would be an excellent choice, IMHO....PM Hi Bud Gl or Sham, He normally has Eschers, maybe a Thuringian or two....

I got a very nice Nakayama from So (150 Aus$) + shipping.

Not all the Nakayamas on his site are suitable for final polishing straights. But if you tell him what you need he'll sort you out.

Stones seems to always fall one of two ways Natural or Synthetic....

Natural fans have a wee bit of romance about their stones, no offense but you guys do :)

Us synthetic users are more about outright performance,,,

Natural Guy "Oh it is so smooth"
Synthetic Guy "Oh it is so sharp"

Natural Guy " It takes 100 laps, as light as a feathers touch"
Synthetic Guy "20 laps and I am done"

Natural Guy "Well if you want the most out of yer stone you have to learn about raising a slurry"
Synthetic Guy "What's a slurry"???


Natural Guy "Well my stone gives a great finish, yours must have been mined 100 feet higher"
Synthetic Guy "They are all the same, just do 20 light laps and yer done"


Natural Guy "I spent $300 on a chunk -o-rock
Synthetic Guy " I spent $300 on an entire honing system"

Small differences out there....

From reading your post I would recommend for you the Norton Starter set 220/1000 - 4k/8k and the lapping stone for $120 on Amazon this covers everything you might throw at it...

Then get the Shapton Sweet 16 from SRD for $94 and you are set for stones

I would recommend the DMT 325 for lapping all of these BTW.....

That would outfit you for about $250 including shipping....

I know this system works, I used it for about a year before I bought the full set of Shapton's

The other nice option out there is the Naniwa Super Stones Lynn isn't kidding, they do work slick as snot...
You could get the 1k-5k-8k-12k with the 325 DMT and be set for life....

Just giving you the other side of the coin....

As sexy and romantic some natural stones are, I have to agree with Glen what what he said. Speaking from purely a performance standpoint, synthetics are very good and reliable.

But hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having some beautiful natural rocks lying around. :D

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stones seems to always fall one of two ways Natural or Synthetic....

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Well, I guess I'm bi-honal!

Great post Glen.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, I guess I'm bi-honal!

Great post Glen.

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Bi-Honal !!!!!

I am still laughing at that one, thanks for the early morning chuckle Ron:rock:

Do ya think your disorder is treatable?????

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stones seems to always fall one of two ways Natural or Synthetic....

Natural fans have a wee bit of romance about their stones, no offense but you guys do :)

Us synthetic users are more about outright performance,,,

Natural Guy "Oh it is so smooth"
Synthetic Guy "Oh it is so sharp"

Natural Guy " It takes 100 laps, as light as a feathers touch"
Synthetic Guy "20 laps and I am done"

Natural Guy "Well if you want the most out of yer stone you have to learn about raising a slurry"
Synthetic Guy "What's a slurry"???


Natural Guy "Well my stone gives a great finish, yours must have been mined 100 feet higher"
Synthetic Guy "They are all the same, just do 20 light laps and yer done"


Natural Guy "I spent $300 on a chunk -o-rock
Synthetic Guy " I spent $300 on an entire honing system"

Small differences out there....

From reading your post I would recommend for you the Norton Starter set 220/1000 - 4k/8k and the lapping stone for $120 on Amazon this covers everything you might throw at it...

Then get the Shapton Sweet 16 from SRD for $94 and you are set for stones

I would recommend the DMT 325 for lapping all of these BTW.....

That would outfit you for about $250 including shipping....

I know this system works, I used it for about a year before I bought the full set of Shapton's

The other nice option out there is the Naniwa Super Stones Lynn isn't kidding, they do work slick as snot...
You could get the 1k-5k-8k-12k with the 325 DMT and be set for life....

Just giving you the other side of the coin....

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If I didnt know better, Id have to think you were making fun of us!:p
Other than my DMT for bevel setting, everything else is natural.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, I guess I'm bi-honal!

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I knew ther was something different about you.;)

HAHA too funny!!

Starting out on synthetic and moved to natural for my straights. So I think I also fall into the Bi-Honal demegraphic :p

To really appreciat naturals I think you need to use both side of the house. Synthetics are like McD's, same thing everywhere you go. Naturals would fall under local regienal yummies. Both get you where you want to go, it's what road you want to take..

Good thing about natural hones: they keep their value. Synthetic hones are second hand from the moment you lay hands on them.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Good thing about natural hones: they keep their value. Synthetic hones are second hand from the moment you lay hands on them.

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Yep in general, you do have a point there....

Sorry, but I gotta disagree. In my mind the analogy is almost like straights versus disposables when talking about natural versus synthetic hones.

Long before anyone ever came up with the idea of embedding synthetic abrasive particulates into a synthetic suspension media, men had been using natural hones wrested from the bowels of the earth with their bare-chested brawn and brow-sweat. :medvl:

They learned the ways of the earth, the ways of the stone, the vagaries of each hone, and turned metal into deadly cutting instruments. :chop:

I feel the mystique surrounding natural hones is similar to the mystique surrounding the straight. Sure, you can get a shave from a Bic, but there is just something about a straight shave. Same with the natural hones for me.

However, I do agree there is nothing wrong with synthetics at all. I own quite a few and am intending to purchase a few more. I'm just saying that for me, I will always prefer naturals.

James.

See.... I like the romanticism of natural hones. Currently I'm on the fence though... I have one of two plans. 1. Buy a cheap set of synthetics and a nice finisher, a la Glen's suggestion, then upgrade later. 2. Why not just cut to the chase and buy Shapton 1k-8k or 16k now, and never have to buy a synthetic hone again? In case 1. i will buy an escher or thuringen or aweseto. In case 2. it'll probably be the chinese 12k or 16k shapton. Thats basically why I was asking.

I think it depends partially on what you intend to do with the hones. Are you going to hone a lot? If so you might want to spring for the more expensive Shaptons and be done with it. If not, then you could start with the cheaper synthetics and maybe upgrade them later, keeping in mind that you most likely can recoup a significant portion of the cost of the original ones in the the classifieds.

Thats what I was thinking. I don't really need to hone a lot. Just touch up what others have done, but I will be doing some refurb work along the lines of one or two razors a month. Just as something on the side, nothing serious. The shaptons sound so nice though.

All the information is very confusing and sometimes contradictory. What you need is a supplier you trust to find the hone you need.

I got mine from So Yama****a who used to be one of the very few selling them. With the increased interest in Nakayamas a few more guys are selling them. Apparently there's no written information as it used to be a couple of small family businesses that ran the mines and selling their stones. Knowledge was passed on from father to son.

I don't speak Japanese, but still have tried cruising 330mate's site to glean what I can. It appears there is a lot of info there and often the translations make little sense (one I got was: Ardently the clouding catfish inside iris sect five 郎 system ) because grammar and referents are all lost.

I have put in some time trying to figure out which stones might make good hones for western style straight razors. It's kind of interesting.

330mate, I see you have added some graphics for HGAL ratings. I like that but the numbers that go along with the graphics would be helpful as well. I presume that is just on the stones most recently added.

If someone found a specific hone on your site and emailed you, you would be able to tell us if that stone would be suitable for our razors, correct?

I would think (and others here can correct me) we would be most interested in hones that have very high hardness, grit and abrasiveness.

(mods feel free to tell me if I am getting too close to being commercial here)

OK gents, I'm on this one...

"Iron Flower" appears to be the direct translation of the Japanese term for what we call "swarf"...the metal worn away by the hone. So if the slurry turns black quickly, then the hone is very hard and should be good for razors...

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Originally Posted by 330matecom

Hello.

I have been to Nakayama mine some times.
It's a pic of the factory in NAKAYAMA and the entrance of Mizumafu mine.
There are more than 6 sub mines of Nakayama.
At the bottom is Mizumafu.
He provide blue gray hard stones well.
Most of entrance was broken.
And Mizumafu will be broken in the near future.
Pillars are corrupt.

My elder master is the last miner of Nakayama.
He is 75 years old.
Nakayama closed about 30 years old ,but few uncut stones are available in his home.
I know some miner of Nakayama ,but most of them are died.

nakayama pictures by mifuqwai - Photobucket

Thanks

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Hello, and welcome to the forum.
Do you have a picture of the narutaki mine as well?
I think we would love to see some of those pics from your blog of you digging

What are the differences between stones from Hitomi-san and Yamakan-san. What is the availability of Kouzaki-aoto.

Ok thanks

Thanks Nakaoka.:beer2:

kanekkui, kanechiki, sorry I do not know the kanji.

What are they or how do they occur? Is it hard particle from the stone, or the steel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stones seems to always fall one of two ways Natural or Synthetic....

Natural fans have a wee bit of romance about their stones, no offense but you guys do :)

Us synthetic users are more about outright performance,,,

Natural Guy "Oh it is so smooth"
Synthetic Guy "Oh it is so sharp"

Natural Guy " It takes 100 laps, as light as a feathers touch"
Synthetic Guy "20 laps and I am done"

Natural Guy "Well if you want the most out of yer stone you have to learn about raising a slurry"
Synthetic Guy "What's a slurry"???


Natural Guy "Well my stone gives a great finish, yours must have been mined 100 feet higher"
Synthetic Guy "They are all the same, just do 20 light laps and yer done"


Natural Guy "I spent $300 on a chunk -o-rock
Synthetic Guy " I spent $300 on an entire honing system"

Small differences out there....

From reading your post I would recommend for you the Norton Starter set 220/1000 - 4k/8k and the lapping stone for $120 on Amazon this covers everything you might throw at it...

Then get the Shapton Sweet 16 from SRD for $94 and you are set for stones

I would recommend the DMT 325 for lapping all of these BTW.....

That would outfit you for about $250 including shipping....

I know this system works, I used it for about a year before I bought the full set of Shapton's

The other nice option out there is the Naniwa Super Stones Lynn isn't kidding, they do work slick as snot...
You could get the 1k-5k-8k-12k with the 325 DMT and be set for life....

Just giving you the other side of the coin....

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Glen I know you're probably tongue in cheek on some of the things you said but gotta disagree on a coupla things.
Japanese natural stones ain't slow - would never do 100 strokes on my Asagi maybe 20 or 30. Now if we're talking Coticules or Chinese 12k I'm 100% in agreement. They are slooooow :)

Also my Suita was about 2/3 the price of a Norton 8k so they don't have to be expensive either.
My Asagi is at least 30k but again was about 30% cheaper than a Shapton 30k so really a bargain by comparison.

As far as being a bunch of romantics tho. Heck, ya got us there. :roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

Just bought a Japanese natural from ZethLent. It arrived today.

It seems to have come originally from 330mate (see? you have a secondary market).

I test drove it a little with a few razors and it had really nice feedback. My Elosef (Bulgarian razor) really seemed to like it. (does anthropomorphism make me a "natural" guy?)

Test shaving tomorrow!

(having fun at the Py family homestead)

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Originally Posted by khaos

PS: can anyone tell me what the famous samurai's used?

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Here is a link explaining the polishing of a Katana and materials used.
It's quite involved.
process of the polishing work