Do I really need a lap stone?

(for about the fourth time) I have a 3-line Swaty, and will be getting Nortons or the like. I will also be getting a German finisher (most likely Thuringen), but that will come lapped.
My question is, will I really need to lap the hones initially? the Swaty yes, but the synth workhorse hones? I don't think I will be using them too much, just an ebay razor now and then and light touch up on my own (probably achievable on the Swaty or Thruingen though)
So if I just sandpaper my way through the Swaty, will I need a lapping plate soon? Do factory hones need to be lapped? How often do you think Thuringens need lapping? The factory hones? In number of razors, and please consider that I am not aspiring to have a hone flat to .00000000001" every time I sit down to hone, I am saying the point where I NEED to lap.
Currently I'm looking at getting a 10x4 DMT X/C, but if I don't really need it, well, thats cash in my pocket.

Most any hone will benefit from lapping. If a supplier says it is pre-lapped, I'd check it with a straightedge first anyway. JIC.

Every Swaty I've had received some lapping. They are hard and diamond works well on them. Once flattened, a Swaty will stay that way for a long time.

You could get by with wet/dry paper. In the long run, a plate can be cheaper if you do much lapping at all.

Hmmm. This is problematic... Do I invest $100 now, or use paper and wait... I'll probably buy it eventually, so if I buy it now, I'll have it this time around... But $100...

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Originally Posted by khaos

(for about the fourth time)
So if I just sandpaper my way through the Swaty, will I need a lapping plate soon? Do factory hones need to be lapped? How often do you think Thuringens need lapping? The factory hones? In number of razors, and please consider that I am not aspiring to have a hone flat to .00000000001" every time I sit down to hone, I am saying the point where I NEED to lap.
Currently I'm looking at getting a 10x4 DMT X/C, but if I don't really need it, well, thats cash in my pocket.

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The Swaty, likely never. The Thurigien will hardly need it, since you will just be finishing. But the Nortons need frequent lapping. No you don't need it to be, nor will you be able to lap them to that degree of flatness, but they work best lapped before each honing session. 10x4 is hardly necessary, an 8x3 DMT8C will do. But if you will be sticking to Nortons, this would be a very good buy. Or get a DMT 8K and you will never need to lap at all.

I just ordered an 8x3 DMT8C from SRD...it should be coming Friday/Saturday - it was less than $45...it should be worth it, as I have been using wet/dry sandpaper, and while it works, it is messy and somewhat time consuming. If I can cut the time and do the lapping in the sink with the water running, the convenience alone will pay for itself. And it will never need lapping itself (unlike the Norton flattening stone).

I will either be getting the Nortons or a set of Henckels. And I read somewhere that the Norton lapping plate breaks down.

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Originally Posted by khaos

My question is, will I really need to lap the hones initially? the Swaty yes, but the synth workhorse hones? I don't think I will be using them too much, just an ebay razor now and then and light touch up on my own (probably achievable on the Swaty or Thruingen though)
So if I just sandpaper my way through the Swaty, will I need a lapping plate soon? Do factory hones need to be lapped? How often do you think Thuringens need lapping? The factory hones? In number of razors, and please consider that I am not aspiring to have a hone flat to .00000000001" every time I sit down to hone, I am saying the point where I NEED to lap.

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You will need to lap all your hones initially. You will also want to lap when the hones start to load up. Yes, this will probably be infrequent with the finest grits. None the less, you will be faced with lapping as long as you are honing razors. Some of the synthetics will distort very slightly between uses and benefit from a few passes on the lapping plate before each use.

As was discussed in one of the other recent threads about lapping, the DMT 8C works well for most guys who have one. You could even say that it is probably one of the most popular solutions to a common problem. I wouldn't get one of the DMTs with the perforated screen surfaces. You want more diamonds, not less. The 8C size is not a problem even when lapping a larger stone. Again, sandpaper will work ...a GDLP works better. Pick what you can justify (in terms of expense) and start using it. It's really not as complicated a decision as you think it is.:)

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Originally Posted by Bill S

It's really not as complicated a decision as you think it is.:)

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Thanks for the encouragement. I just don't want to **** something I paid a lot for up.

I have 7 Norton hones. Every single one of them desperately needed to be lapped before its first use. They do not come flat. They are not even close to flat. Even if they did, with use they become dished so you need to have some kind of lapping method in place.

The DMT8C is adequate for lapping but if you want to lap a barber hone, or anything else that is hard or of low grit, do yourself a favor and put a piece of coarse wet/dry sandpaper on top of the DMT plate (remember, it's a flat surface) and lap with that to save your diamonds.

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

I just ordered an 8x3 DMT8C from SRD...it should be coming Friday/Saturday - it was less than $45...it should be worth it, as I have been using wet/dry sandpaper, and while it works, it is messy and somewhat time consuming. If I can cut the time and do the lapping in the sink with the water running, the convenience alone will pay for itself. And it will never need lapping itself (unlike the Norton flattening stone).

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Exactly right!

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Originally Posted by khaos

Thanks for the encouragement. I just don't want to **** something I paid a lot for up.

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Whatever method/tool you chose you'll do fine. Some of this stuff sounds more complicated than it is. Once you try it much of the info and advice floating around (which can be confusing) will make more sense. Hey...if you're smart enough to want to use a straight razor lapping will be no problem.:gl:

above you have great advises . i would like to add 1 more . you don't have to spend 100 or 50 or 20 for lapping stone.
check ebay there is guy selling dmt dual side 150/600 it is made in china and price is 9$ .i think shipping include. i use it every time if i need lap any stone. it does leave a little scratches but it isn't a big problem. hope this helps.

You don't need a lapping stone. Sandpaper on your countertop/tile/etc is fine. The lapping stones are mostly for convenience/efficiency.

They do make life a lot easier, but if you're looking to save money for now, don't sweat it. Do expect your swaty to be a bear to lap the first (only?) time, though, and the nortons take a while the first time as well. Once everything is flat, touchup lappings are a breeze save for the inconvenience the sandpaper adds.

Eventually, you'll get fed up with getting out and setting up the sandpaper and buy a D8C ;)

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Eventually, you'll get fed up with getting out and setting up the sandpaper and buy a D8C ;)

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That's exactly what happened to me. I thought I would never drop the dime on a lapping plate if the sandpaper would suffice, but low and behold my SRD shipment should be here in a day or two!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

The DMT8C is adequate for lapping but if you want to lap a barber hone, or anything else that is hard or of low grit, do yourself a favor and put a piece of coarse wet/dry sandpaper on top of the DMT plate (remember, it's a flat surface) and lap with that to save your diamonds.

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I heard DMTs are aggressive at first. Would it be feasible to just lap it on a brand new D8C? This will break in the D8C and calm it down, as well as lap the Swaty while the D8c is at its most aggressive. Unless thats not good enough, or will kill rather than tame the D8C. Please advise.

I still have a fairly new DMT D8C, and it was more aggressive at first. After trying to break it in using the shank of a screwdriver for a bit I lapped my nortons. Perhaps since it wasn't really broken in yet (these suckers are tough) but the surface may not have been quite as smooth as it is now when I lap using the DMT.

This is just my personal opinion and don't really have much to back it up...But in my head it seems to make more sense that breaking in a DMT is a lot more important if you're going to use it to actually hone your razor with, i.e. use your razor directly on it. For lapping I don't find it to be as important. Worse case scenario is that when you're using a non-broken in DMT D8C there's a diamond that's slightly higher so it leaves some superficial scratches on the stones surface, and perhaps just slightly rougher than if lapped on a more broked in one. Honestly, I haven't found any problem using a stone with a couple superficial scratches as it doesn't affect it at all.

Now back to your original question. Getting by with just sandpaper works just fine, but you have to ask yourself this: Even if you use sandpaper because it's cheaper, do you see yourself getting a stone for lapping down the road? If yes, just buy it now and save the money you would've spent on the sandpaper. If no, then just be happy with the sandpaper. :)

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Originally Posted by khaos

I heard DMTs are aggressive at first. Would it be feasible to just lap it on a brand new D8C? This will break in the D8C and calm it down, as well as lap the Swaty while the D8c is at its most aggressive. Unless thats not good enough, or will kill rather than tame the D8C. Please advise.

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Having tried that, the answer is yes, but your going ot want to shoot yourself after the first 2 hours. Assuming the stone is anything like the spyderco F or even medium. Lapping those barber hones is a big pain and the only thing that makes the job easier is a lot of packs of 120 grit 3m sandpaper or a 120 grit diamond stone.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

Having tried that, the answer is yes, but your going ot want to shoot yourself after the first 2 hours. Assuming the stone is anything like the spyderco F or even medium. Lapping those barber hones is a big pain and the only thing that makes the job easier is a lot of packs of 120 grit 3m sandpaper or a 120 grit diamond stone.

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Try the 3M sandblaster 120 grit paper. You can find it at autozone. Good stuff. It absolutely tears up naturals, but it handled the swaty pretty well also. Lasts a long time and the slurry doesn't clog it.

The 325 can take a while to lap a Swaty. I start with 125 grit and finish on a 325 +.

I sometimes use a hard barber hone to help break-in a new DMT. A hardened piece of steel seems to work faster.

I think the Swaty is roughly equal in hardness to a Spyderco medium. The white Spydercos were the hardest thing I've ever lapped, with the possible exception of a Carborundum Co. barber hone.

Okay. So I will be getting some kind of DMT 320 grit/Coarse. However, since I will probably need something rougher for the Swaty, and I decided I want something a little finer to finish, I stopped by autoworks and got the following: a 3-pack of 3M 80 grit wet/dry paper, a 3-pack of 3M Sandblaster 120 grit paper, and a 4 sheet variety pack of 3M wet/dry paper that I think goes 400 600 800 1000. All of them are the large sheets. I also stopped by Lowes and picked up a marble tile, I laid two of them together and light didn't shine through and it produced suction, so I'm guessing that means its pretty darn flat right? So I plan to use the Sandblaster, as I think 80 is too coarse, but my question is, can I use it wet? No where on it does it say wet/dry, so I wasn't sure, which is why I got the 80 grit wet dry, just in case. After I lap my rocks on the DMT I want to give them a quick run through on the finer papers. Did I get the right stuff?
I found an iron pipe in my garage, can I hit the DMT with that? It looks kinda gunky. Would I be better off going to the dollar store and getting a ****ty knife?

Looking good!
The sandpaper will wear out fast, but if you do the gross jobs on the sandblaster stuff it will work.

No idea on the gunky pipe. Better not probably.

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Originally Posted by khaos

Okay. So I will be getting some kind of DMT 320 grit/Coarse. However, since I will probably need something rougher for the Swaty, and I decided I want something a little finer to finish, I stopped by autoworks and got the following: a 3-pack of 3M 80 grit wet/dry paper, a 3-pack of 3M Sandblaster 120 grit paper, and a 4 sheet variety pack of 3M wet/dry paper that I think goes 400 600 800 1000. All of them are the large sheets. I also stopped by Lowes and picked up a marble tile, I laid two of them together and light didn't shine through and it produced suction, so I'm guessing that means its pretty darn flat right? So I plan to use the Sandblaster, as I think 80 is too coarse, but my question is, can I use it wet? No where on it does it say wet/dry, so I wasn't sure, which is why I got the 80 grit wet dry, just in case. After I lap my rocks on the DMT I want to give them a quick run through on the finer papers. Did I get the right stuff?
I found an iron pipe in my garage, can I hit the DMT with that? It looks kinda gunky. Would I be better off going to the dollar store and getting a ****ty knife?

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Yeah, you can use the sandblaster wet. It's incredibly waterproof. Much more so than wet/dry paper. It's really different and great stuff, IMO.

Sweet. If I can tolerate it, can I use the 120 for all the hones, or am I better off getting a finer grit sandblaster (ie the 120 will just eat valuable rock)?

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Originally Posted by khaos

Sweet. If I can tolerate it, can I use the 120 for all the hones, or am I better off getting a finer grit sandblaster (ie the 120 will just eat valuable rock)?

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What other hones are you lapping? I've found that the 120 is really better for heavy duty lapping. I saw you were looking at a thuringian and norton (assuming 4k/8k?). For the norton, I would lap them the first time on the 120 sandblaster, and then subsequent laps on ~600 grit w/d. For the thuringian, unless it's in pretty rough shape, head straight to the 400 w/d, then the 600 w/d (IME, they are soft and lap fast). If it's in rough shape, get it mostly there with the sandblaster, then head to the 600. The idea with the sandblaster is just to get you to an initial flatness and then you should never need it on the same hone again. Once the stone you're working with is flat with the sandblaster, move on up the grits.

I think by the time "subsequent laps" comes around I'll have a D8C. I have not yet decided between the Norton set and the Henckels set, but I guess thats much of a muchness. The Thuringen I'm getting from Kees is in new condition (its vintage though) and he is send it lapped. Good to know that I should only use high grits for it. How high should I go in the grit rating? stop at 600? Or should I smooth out on 800 or even 1k?

I don't think you need to break in the plate for lapping.

Your hones will do that quite readily.

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Originally Posted by Razorburne

I just ordered an 8x3 DMT8C from SRD...it should be coming Friday/Saturday - it was less than $45...it should be worth it, as I have been using wet/dry sandpaper, and while it works, it is messy and somewhat time consuming. If I can cut the time and do the lapping in the sink with the water running, the convenience alone will pay for itself. And it will never need lapping itself (unlike the Norton flattening stone).

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OK, I have a DMT8C as a lapping stone and my question might be silly, but here goes:
Does the DMT8C as a lapping stone needs to be lapped too? By what grit? A Wet and dry 80 grit sandpaper? Or is the DMT8C so tough that will ALWAYS remain perfectly flat? Does lapping a lapping stone makes sense? I told you it would be a silly question...

Thanks

Surprised no one answered your question yet.

The answer is no. If you have a diamond plate, its good until the diamonds wear out. If you have something like the norton lapping stone, you have to lap that with a diamond stone or something similar. Or sandpaper.