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I've read the wiki. I've searched the forums. I haven't been able to make any progress towards making a decision about what hone to get.
Purpose: touch up only
Options (I think): Barbers, Coticule, Nakayama
I want a good stone that will give me superlative results. I'll leave the bevel setting to the pros. I just want to touch up.
Why are Nakayamas worth the $$$?
Why are Barbers hones so cheap?
Why do the honemeisters not use Barbers stones?
Please help. :(
From my own experience and research, having very recently purchased and used my own set of hones, there are a couple of reasons older members do not advise barber hones. First and foremost, it is quite difficult to establish what kind of stone you are actually getting from most online vendors. Most of them don't know what kind of grit rating the stone is, or even what company makes them - simply tagging the item barber hone. Thus, you're basically spending money with hit or miss tactics that you get a stone that is suitable for use with your razor at all. I was personally looking into barber hones, but after the idea got slammed by a few people I went with more trusted options.
I'm sure there are some other members that can give you some more advice, but I would stay away from barber hones. I'm planning to touch up my own razor on my chinese 12k after about a week to see how it does. If you currently own a set of hones, using your highest grit rating or a comparable stone (you'll have to check with other members on that) might be the way to go for touch ups. You might also go the route of a treated strop, although I have personally never done so.
So barber's is out.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUESSKOENIG
I do not wish to go the treated strop route.
I do not have a set of hones myself.
I'm leaning towards nakayama, but have a feeling that would be overkill.
Huh? I know several "older members" (Nun2Sharp, Lynn Abrams...ahem...) who sometimes use and recommend barber's hones. They're cheap, and if you get a known one like a Swaty they're pretty reliable. As long as you make sure you see pictures and it's not falling apart, it should do you well. And of course, you can always get direct advice by posting a pic of the hone you're considering.
They're cheap (sometimes) because they are common as dirt, and the market is pretty limited to, well, us. Check the classifieds, and you'll probably see at least one a week come up.
Seeing as how a Nakayama is an entire order of magnitude more expensive than a barber hone, you might want to think about it. I mean, if you've got the scratch there's no reason NOT to go for it, but it's not necessary.
If your only requirement is that the hone be high enough grit to touch up, you've got tons of options--Coticule, 12K naniwa, 16K-30K Shapton, Chinese Waterhone, barberhone, etc. etc. If there are other factors that weight in, like size, cost, aesthetic, natural or synthetic, and so on, then you have something to narrow down your options.
A BIG +1 on Jim's comments about barber hones.
The reason they are cheap is because they are so useful, that when straight shaving was the only way, practically everybody had one, so there are millions of them floating around out there.
I have a relatively full set of shapton glass hones, including the 16k, and I have chosen to keep my barber hone because they are so ideally suited to touch-ups.
5 laps on a barber hone will refresh an edge. I just pull it out of the bathroom cupboard, slap some lather on it from my brush, make 5 passes, a few laps on the strop, and it's right back to shaving.
I'm an extreme beginner, but I really like my NOS Thuringian from Kees. Full-sized 8" x 3" for only $100.
I respectfully, but almost completely, disagree with everything you wrote. First, do you have ANY experience with barber hones? "First and foremost," I don't know of any online vendor of a barber hone. There might be some, but if they don't provide a grit rating, there's a valid reason for that and I'll get to it later. I don't know of any modern day barber hone being made. Swaty made over 5 million barber hones and there were probably many times that of Swaty clones made. So many were made because they worked, and worked well, for over a hundred years. No, most people don't know the grit of their barber hones. Anyone who knows anything about barber hones knows that grit size of a barber hone is irrelevant. That in no way means that barber hones don't work. Yes, some few barber hones don't work well, but I wouldn't exactly call their acquisition a "hit or miss tactic." If you buy a barber hone and you don't like it, you're out maybe 20 bucks. Odds are good that the next barber hone will work well and for $40 you've got the only hone you will ever need and you can put the first one up on ebay and probably recoup most of what you paid for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUESSKOENIG
By the way, about your "Chinese 12k" that you bought, you don't know the grit rating on that either. I guarantee that it's not 12k. It's a misnomer to identify a natural stone as having a particular grit. Also, no properly honed razor should need a touch up after only a week.
Finally, personally, I DO advise the use of barber hones. I'm fully aware that some people don't like them but if you start with a properly honed razor, you can maintain that razor for many years with nothing but that $20 barber hone. If you plan on honing many razors, then no, a barber hone is not practical, but if you intend to just maintain a few of your own razors, there is no need to invest a lot of money in hones when that single barber hone can provide you with a perfectly serviceable set of razors for the rest of your and your son's and your grandson's lives.
For anyone who is interested in a barber hone, there are some of us in this forum who can advise you on any particular barber hone you find for sale in the classifieds or on ebay. Help is available if you want it.
If I were purchasing one stone to do touchups, I would
try to stay with a consistent stone that isn't too fine --
the Shapton 30k and Nakayama may not be the best
choice (and then you've got the price)...
- Scott
I would say barber hones is the best option for touch ups. Think about it you don't need to more then 2-4 strokes? which hone will replace this? There is none. have fun
Brilliant post otherwise, but I am not entirely certain I subscribe to the above statement. My full hollows certainly do after 5-7 shaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Also, (if it wasn't already crystal clear that most of us are in favor of barber hones) I would add one small thing to what JimR said here. While he is ABSOLUTELY correct, almost any vintage razor hone will do the job extremely well.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I have a 2-sided "Amaloid" razor hone* that I briefly considered selling after I got my shaptons, but it's just too handy to get rid of.
These things were sold under dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of brand names, and the vast majority of them are GREAT.
The only ones you really need to stay away from AFAIK, are some of the new products that are sold as barber hones, but are in fact pieces of petrified dog turd, like the Zeepk brand razor hone, or the chunks of rock glued to a stick.
*I said "razor hone" because that's what almost all of them were sold as, and if you go looking for them on ebay you have to search for razor hone instead of barber hone, or you won't find many. After all, these were not specialty items for barbers, but every day household items.
I am sorry to say I agree 100%. if razor honed right it will last at least 3 months without hone. you can just strop and go head shave with it. At the moment i am doing experiment with my ti i use only that razor and have been shaving for a week it still as sharp as when i started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I think problem is everyone wants to get blade as sharp as possible. Looks like Looking for the BEST SHAVE EVER as a result your blade gets almost overhone. From that type blade you can get very nice shave for a 2-3 shaves and then edge starts to dull. Next you end up going to hone again.
(Please note we are not talking about chinese or pakistany or some crappy razors/)
Since there are so many other people defending barber hone usage I'll address the third question as to why honemeisters don't use them. They don't use them because they are most often not doing a simple touch up and they have complete honing systems to take a razor to a level beyond where most barber hones can go.
When I am doing a full re-sharpening on any of my razors it doesn't see the barbers hone either but for quick re-freshes and even for a final finish right at the sink I use my swaty. It is only one of three barbers hones I have used with success the second doesn't put as fine a finish on a razor, I would call it a coarse barbers hone, I don't use it often because it is much slower than my waterstone at doing the same job. The Swaty sees use over my third barbers hone which is a lithide hone, I like the swaty because it is larger and faster at its job, but either works equally well at providing a comfotable edge.
So...barber's hone is still in the running. But I am afraid of the potential risk of a barber's hone damaging the edge and unlike Undream et al. I won't know (no experience). As such, the cost would be $20 for the (bad) barber hone + shipping razor out for honing + honing service itself + return shipping + cost of another barber's hone, possibly to repeat again. By the time I'm on my second hone, I'll have paid half of what a JP natural would cost...what's the proper analysis here?
Is a japanese natural stone overkill for a casual honing job?
Because a barber hones cuts VERY slowly, you are actually less likely to damage your edge than with almost anything else.
As far as getting the wrong barber hone, I can help you out with that. All of the following hones would work very well, and range from $6.00-$50.00 most between 10 and 30.
Antique Everkeen Straight Razor Hone JPH Co Ready 2 Use - eBay (item 290337018415 end time Aug-09-09 18:48:12 PDT)
2 VINTAGE RAZOR HONES SWASTIKA RAZOR HONE STONES *LOOK* - eBay (item 330349388096 end time Aug-09-09 09:50:38 PDT)
Vintage O- SO-EZE Razor Hone DOUBLE SIDED - eBay (item 400065443873 end time Aug-09-09 16:21:46 PDT)
Vintage SWEET'S Razor Hone DOUBLE SIDED - eBay (item 400065443994 end time Aug-09-09 16:23:09 PDT)
ZENITH BARBERS DRY embossed RAZOR HONE sharpening stone - eBay (item 250475029526 end time Aug-09-09 18:19:26 PDT)
MINT STRAIGHT RAZOR HONE - eBay (item 110420884543 end time Aug-10-09 17:00:35 PDT)
STRAIGHT RAZOR HONE IN BOX - eBay (item 110420885190 end time Aug-10-09 17:03:10 PDT)
Vintage KING MIDAS Straight Razor Dbl. Sided HONE Stone - eBay (item 360178092505 end time Aug-14-09 16:40:38 PDT)
STRAIGHT RAZOR HONE IN BOX VAN AMP - eBay (item 120457119953 end time Aug-15-09 10:58:29 PDT)
Vintage Pearlduck Double Duck Razor Hone Dry Stone - eBay (item 300336147664 end time Aug-15-09 11:27:30 PDT)
Personally, I'd get one of the 2-sided ones, just because having the coarser side allows you to touch up edges that are slightly worse that usual, but still don't need to be fully re-honed.
would a shapton pro 12k work?
Well, yes an no.
It goes without saying that a shapton pro is VERY expensive compared to everything else you've considered.
Also, they really need to be lapped on a reliable surface, so either a $250 DGLP or a $40 DMT.
Plus, a barber hone, a small sized coticule or other small natural finishing hone is easier to keep in the bathroom than a 3"x8" shapton.
However, 12k is a reasonable range for a touch-up hone. Although, I wouldn't use my shapton over my barber hone. I have both*, and when I need a touch up, I reach for the barber hone and not the shapton.
*Okay, to be fair, I have the 16k glass, not the 12k pro, but we're still in the same neighborhood.
In terms of cost, the Nakayama stones I'm favoring are more expensive than the Shaptons, by quite a bit.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think that the difference between a slow, hard natural stone and a barber's hone is that the barber's hone will get the job done quick (8 laps or less) and dirty (coarser; take off more steel than really necessary), whereas the natural stones that are slow and hard, give better resolution (take off as little steel as possible) but in so doing take much more time (maybe 10 minutes). So do you want a burger to go? or a nice sit-down meal at that sushi place downtown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
I should say every single finishing hone will work but there is only 1 small problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
When you start this thread this was the headline.
" Looking for a touch-up hone "
Now if you are looking answer to that questions answer will be barber hone. There is a lot different grit size barber hones available. Some above 12k range some below.
Touch-up - is a barber hone before you shave you make no more then 2-4 strokes and start to shave. that is it.
if you are asking about final polishing stone then that is a totally different question starts with coticule ends up God knows where. .
hope i was clear.
The division between touch-up and finishing/polishing stone is blurry to me. I'm going off of what is written on the wiki:Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
Quote:
Later when it comes time for you to learn how to maintain your straight razors edge, all you need then is a final polishing hone.
Taken together, this indicates to me that Nakayama, Barber's, Coticule, Shapton 12K are all options. But at this time, I am not interested in dropping cash for stone after stone.Quote:
If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemeister (the process is often referred to as "touching up" on SRP), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.
So, is my dining analogy below correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
Ok let me try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
touch up stone is person uses almost every shave. you get razor honed and you shave with it for a 4 months then it gets dull what you do before shave you pick up your barber hone and make 2-4 strokes on touch up hone and your blades edge restores you shave fine and so on.
final polishing hone you use only when you have start to hone razor and at the end of honing you use for final polish the edge and you done. you could make 50 laps some does 150 laps etc not important but this is the it is function.
Now lets say you have paid 300 and get nakayama.
your razor after using 4 months is dull and you like to touch up. Can you use Your nakayama and bring that edge back? Of course you can. will take you some laps don't know exact count at least 20 then razor ready.
this is all.
hope i was clear. thank you
so both will refresh the edge. barber's will take 4-5 strokes, nakayama will take much more, say 20 strokes.
how does the barber's hone do this? does barber's hone take fewer strokes because it takes off more steel per stroke?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
Basically they are fast cutter's . that is why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
there is no natural barber hones(at least this is what i know) . a lot natural finisher's out there.
and fast cutter == takes off more steel per stroke?Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
Others might disagree, but personally, no; I don't think it's correct at all. In fact, I'd say it's not even close.
A better dining analogy would be to say that a barber hone is specifically designed to do exactly the job you're trying to do, while not one of the other options you've considered is created with that purpose in mind. So the question becomes, if you want a burger, do you go to a burger joint or do you go to a Chinese restaurant and order a burger off the kids menu?
Finishing and touch-up are two COMPLETELY different things. Finishing is the process of polishing out the final honing scratches, while touching up is taking an edge that is no longer shaving correctly and bringing it back into line.
I wouldn't touch up my razor on a finishing hone, and I wouldn't finish a razor on a barber hone.
I won't keep beating a dead horse, so my last comment is this: decide what job you want to do, and get the right tool for it. If you want a finisher, get a finisher. If you want a touch-up, get a barber hone. It's what they are made for.
Whichever way you go, enjoy.
I wish i could go back in time and slap my self silly. Then just buy a barber hone and pasted strop.
Barber hones work really well, barber hone + paste is a really easy way to maintain an edge. IMHO.
I appreciate the patience, but cannot source the exasperation. You can read the wiki yourself: it says touch up is equivalent to refinishing, I even quoted it for your reference. Is it that difficult to see where my confusion comes from? If you're so categorically certain of this black and white division of applications, then I suggest the wiki be changed to reflect such an obvious truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
And my main concern isn't addressed by your analogy: the analogy of refinishing is eating a meal, not what kind of meal. the only objective difference between polishing and touching up that has been made in this thread is a matter of how long you have to keep at it, not the kind of edge you get. analogically, its how long you spend eating dinner, as opposed to what you eat.
your analogy implies that if i were to refinish a blade on a polishing stone i'd get a burger-at-a-chinese-restaurant (i.e. insanely inferior and unsatisfying) result. and i'm not sure that's true.
so are fast cutting stones "fast" only because they wear down the steel quicker? i.e. they eat more steel per stroke because the cutting particulates are sharper/denser?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast
i think you are confused a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
Please understand this Fast cutting stone doesn't mean to has to be lower grit stones. All barber hones are synthetic hones and some fast cutting ones(not all of them) this will not mean they are going to move more metals and put deep scratches. it could be fast cutter and no deep scratches at all.
:(Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
I posted a similar question here and at B&B yesterday so I'm in the same boat. I agree completely that finishing and touch ups were the same in my mind. I realize that everyone has their own opinion, but please keep in mind we are newb's here asking for help and advice. It was my understanding that for example the Chinese 12K would be a good stone for touch ups and for finishing, just taking a little longer, thus requiring more patience. Wouldn't it depend on a 'comfort' level of the user? I hearposts referencing well known people shaving of the 8K side of the Norton 4/8 and finding that fine. Other posts claim that a barber hone is between 8-12K roughly, each brand being slightly different. Why would you not touch up a razor on a finishing hone, if that's what you like the feel of shaving? If you finish on say a 30K for sake of discussion, why would you touch up on something thats at least have the grit? wouldn't it be less comfortable?
I'm still on the fence on what I want to do. It seems that even between B&B and SRP there's a difference of opinion on what one should use as a touch up or refresh for a blade that's not up to par any more.
Maybe we're just thicker than most but I'm still in the understanding that any of the hones that Ichinichi have mentioned could be used for finishing or touching up. I'm not asking for scientific evidence, I'm asking for feel, what would feel the best?
Hopefully this will help myself and Ichinishi make our decisions even though I think we'll make different choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
then what makes a stone a "fast cutter"? that it takes fewer strokes to get through a particular amount of metal? if so, then how does such a stone grind down more steel without eating more metal per stroke? more steel per stroke does not entail deep scratches, just that the steel "gives" more than the abrasive surface so the steel wears away faster.
i thought grit is the size of the particulate, not the sharpness or hardness of the abrasive particulate.
This is a fantastic point. Polish and finishing stones are much much higher grit than the average barber's hone. So then why would you rough up the edge with a grit half that of your polish and say that the lower grit gives a better edge than the polish stone? And that the JP stone gives a burger-at-a-chinese-joint edge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cove5440
The questions are simple:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cove5440
1. all else being equal (i.e. skill level, pressure, blade, water hardness, ambient temperature) in say under 100 strokes, what can be done to an edge by a barber's hone that cannot be done to an edge on a JP natural?
We're being told that the answer is Nothing, except the JP will take more time/strokes than the barber's.
2. what is the mechanism by which a stone is "fast"?
Holy cow, this is getting WAAAAY too controversial.
1.) A barber's hone is a perfectly satisfactory solution to the problem you are having, as that is what it is designed for.
2.) It is most definitely NOT the only solution for what you want--other people in the past have used, with great succes, any number of things such as a Coticle (YES THEY HAVE, guys...), a pasted strop, and yes, even a Nakayama.
It sounds to me like you think the Nakayama would be best. It sounds to me, in fact, like you really want to buy one. So do it. Jimbo, our friendly Roo strop maker, apparently uses a Nakayama as a touch up hone, and my barber does as well. Why not?
Man, do what you think best, just remember that the path less traveled means there are fewer maps to follow.
Sorry about that, tone comes through wrong on forums from time to time. My only exasperation is that I felt like I was repeating myself, which I didn't want to continue doing because it would sound, well, it would sound the way it appears I sounded anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi
My opinion on the subject certainly isn't gospel, but it is what it is. IMO, if you have the choice between two tools to do a job, one was specifically made to do that exact job and the other was not, you use the one that was made for the job.
In the interest of adding info to an already overburdened theme, here is a link to a thread I started a while back exploring just this kind of thing. It might help. Or it might just confuse matters.
Thanks for digging up that older thread Jim, I remember that one well. I sure got a laugh from certain members who only had one or two hones back then and now have an entire arsenal at their disposal.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
Reading my responses back then I realized my routine hasn't changed, nor has my set-up. Yellow coticule and chrome does the trick for me.
I want to thank everyone for their information and advice. I've ended up buying two hones. A barber hone:
Vintage KING MIDAS Straight Razor Dbl. Sided HONE Stone on eBay.ca (item 360178092505 end time 14-Aug-09 19:40:38 EDT)
It's a lot better than it looks there. It needed a good wash. It was covered in what I think was lather. It's very smooth aside from the chips and they are even smaller than they look on the bay pictures. Not sure why the pictures came out SOO bad, but I'm happy! There's enough surface to avoid the chips, just limited until I can lap it on the front. The back has one chip but the rest of the surface is very smooth after I cleaned it.
I also picked up a Chinese water hone(refered to as a 12K by some).:)
Now that I have both, I'd recommend the barber hone for newbs. I think the Chinese hone will be great for finishing on, but I think you could get by without it if you had a barber hone.
Still need to learn how to use them properly, but I've had my first shave after a touch up on the barber hone and then to the chinese then to the strop. It was so much smoother, but I think my razor was less sharp than I had originally thought. It's more comfortable now, but not sharp enough. Will tune it up a little and see where we go from there.
Thanks again for everyone who added info to this!!!!
This is a pretty cool thread. As Bart said in JimR's link 'any advice given here will only ever be akin to a light beacon in the mist and no newcomer is ever excused from doing their own homework'. Maybe time for some good old trial and error.GL;)