Is there a coating...

...on these Naniwa stones?

I've been working at honing, but only dulling my razor, when I got the idea in my head that I hadn't lapped my hones enough -- On one of them, the 12k, I figure I did lap it sufficiently -- after which the even coloured surface gave way to a speckled consistency underneath. That stone didn't seem to do any damage. It's when I went back to the 8k that things got worse.

I hadn't assumed that all the stones are the same as the 12k -- with the speckled consistency, but after slaving at the kitchen sink for half an hour last night (a woman's work is never done... [don't quote me on that]), I found the same thing on my 5k stone. There's a speckled consistency beneath the even colour that seems to come off (with much effort) in a fine silt that gums up the DMT.

Hopefully I've described this well enough. Does this sound right to everyone?

Thanks

Brenton

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing but mine have speckles so I guess it must be the same ? Seems to me that is a normal state of affairs. When I lap any stone I draw a pencil grid and lap under running water in the kitchen sink so the swarf ,,,of silt as you call it runs off. Sounds normal to me.

pics please.
If I understand what you are talking about , the Superstones are resin bound abrasive, I think that gives the speckle like appearance?

My Naniwas also have a speckled look to them.

The speckles are not evenly distributed.

Ok, I think I'm beginning to bark up the right tree.

I'd touched up my razor with the assistance of a local honemeister on the 12K, but after I shaved with it, I thought I'd try to do some more touching up at home. When I went down to the 8k stone, which I hadn't lapped down to the speckle finish, I made the razor dull. I thought I was careful. So, then I went down to the 5k, and only made it worse.

So, the way I figure it, this coating on the stones is probably not abrasive, so gives no sharpening benefit, but is also soft, so the edge is perhaps digging in and or folding back on itself.

If this sounds right, well, I just have a lot more "woman's work" to do over the kitchen sink, lapping the crap off my 8 and 5k hones.

Phew. This feels like relief is insight for me. I was getting pretty frustrated that my careful, though inexperienced honing was doing nothing at all to help.

What a helpful lot you fellows are. Many thanks.

Brenton

IME I drew a pencil grid on my Naniwa stones and lapped that grid off. No more no less. Once flat the stones performed just fine. I don't see the need to lap them beyond that. I would perhaps look to your stroke, pressure ..... honing technique before I found fault with the hones.

When I first lapped my Naniwa 8k/3k stone it produced a slurry alarmingly fast. It felt just like chalk so I was afraid to lap it too much. For this reason I only lapped it flat.

As for the coating on the stone, I have found that I can get the blade to pop hairs off the 1k, but then when I go to the 3k it dulls again. For some reason I can't get the 3k side to make the razor pop hairs. Giving up in frustration I go to the 8k and in not many strokes it easily pops hairs. So I am starting to think that when the hone is made there is a surface which forms on top which needs to be lapped off.

Thanks for your feedback guys.

I thought I had cracked the mystery with lapping off the coating on the hone, so with much elbow grease, I got the 5k down to it's speckled finish (removing the sludgy goop that seemed to coat its surface), then made it flat.

Then lapped it 5 times, 10 times, 20 times, 50 times.

It won't pop hair, but if I hold a few leg hairs firmly at the end, I can saw through it.

We may be back to technique here, though I tried to be oh so careful.

It seems something of a black art to me. I'll keep trying. Mean time I have a USB microscope coming.

I think maybe we are having a semantics problem here....


The Naniwa's are a pain in the butt the lap the first time out...

Here is what seems to work lap, lap, lap, hone, lap, hone, lap, THEY ARE READY !!!!

When we say "lap the hone" we usually mean draw a pencil grid on the top of the stone and rub that off with a lapping stone... ONCE

If you are using a DMT you have to do this in the sink with running water on the stones or they will gum up and wipe the pencil off the stone before you are done...

Lap all the stones hone a razor, lap again, hone a razor, lap again.. this is when the stones start to act right...

The Naniwa's can deceive you on the normal sharp tests from 3k-10k They act pretty much normal at the 1k level and at 10k and above.. But starting at 3k they can fail the tests that you have grown used to on other stones.. They are just really smooth and the edges don't have that toothy sharp feel... Just hone through this and keep going one time, and see if you are actually on the right track, go though the finishing on 10k or 12k and just try a test shave.. First few times I used them I thought the same thing, until I finally honed through and found an incredibly smooth shave at the end...

Mine has a speckly appearance, too. It also goes out of true quite quickly for a fine grade stone, so I am forced to believe that the resin matrix is not that dimensionally stable. I lap all my stones with a DMT during use, about once a week or more. Once every 3 or 4 weeks I use the grid test along with wet and dry paper on a thick plate of glass. The naniwa always has hollows and humps in areas that you wouldn't expect, and always behave much better after proper flattening.

IME Glen is right about the smoothness of the edge contributing to the "hair popping" - the relatively ragged edge straight off a 1k stone always pops hairs for me, then the increasing smoothness of the edge with each succesive stone grabs the hair less and less.

I reckon you will easily see how each higher grit stone removes the marks from the stone before it when you get your scope.

Regards,
Neil.

Glen, Neil,

Thanks for your further comments here. This goes a long way to making sense out of what's happening (and not happening) for me here.

I shall keep at this.

I was thinking this afternoon that maybe I need to get a 1k stone, and start all the way down there. Maybe this is premature. I'll keep going at it with the 5k.

Now...where did I leave that DMT? Oh yeah, left it in the garage after sharpening the lawn mower blade... (kidding).

-Brenton

Today I thought I should lap my Naniwa 3k/8k because it has been used on a number of razors since I last lapped it. To lap my hones I have been using a glass plate and sheets of wet and dry paper. So I drew a grid on each side of my combination stone and lapped off the grid. After about two laps on the glass plate with wet and dry paper I could see that my hone was indeed curved. A few laps later the grid was gone and I had a lot of slurry. This time I had the time to be pedantic. So instead of just going to finer paper and giving it a few laps until I thought it was smooth I drew a grid again and gave it one or two laps and checked again. It turns out that the curve was still there and the slurry was washing away the grid.

So I went through the whole process a couple more times. Draw the grid then lap the grid off. But this time I did it under running water.

What this experience tells me is that I was trying to hone razors with a curved hone. This might also be what is giving you the impression that your hone has some sort of coating. Even if it does have a coating I think it should still be able to hone, but if it is curved that might be a different story.

Interesting discovery there Nathan. I admit I only drew one grid per lapping, so I could be having this going on as well.

I am among the speckled.

I have virtually lapped my 1K and 5K to the bone. Actually lapped once and cleaned on a GDLP daily.

Lynn

Update to this important story


I went ahead and lapped the 8k stone last night, then too honed the razor on the 5, 8, and 12k keeping the advice above in mind that the sharpness tests don't work as expected off these stones.

Forgetting to strop, I took the razor for a test spin on my not-too-thick bead (shaved in the morning with a new blade in the DE).

Razor really glided over the skin -- no pull, like it was before I got into this whole fiasco with re-sharpening.

Maybe it was the not so thick beard.

Stropped this morning -- now it was popping hairs.

Shaved, and again, smoothly across the skin. None of the tearing the hair out by the handful feeling.

It's not as close a shave as with the DE, but I'm still learning my technique. I must admit.