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I just picked up the 220/1000, 4000/8000, lap and stand set from Amazon. I'm wondering, many of the guys on here will use a 12k or 16k after the 8k. How much does this really help? Can anyone recommend a good, reasonably priced polishing (I believe that's the term for the 12k and 16k stones) hone?
I follow with 10k Super Stone, might be possible to do 12k instead of 10k.
Any of the Finishing stones will work,,, My advice to new honers though is don't go above that N8k until you are very happy with the shave you get off that stone... Try just using it and maybe a CrOx strop until you master that set, then and only then, add more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Hi Glen,
Why do you say that? I'm not in any way disagreeing with you, I'm just curious as to the logic behind the statement..!
Thanks!
Stuart
because an 8k + Paste is totally enough. If you canīt get a good edge of an 8k with paste, you are not ready to go for a super-sensitive high grit finisher.
If the edge isnīt perfect at 8k level, things will only get worse
ond post 8k levels.
The higher the grit, the more sensitive to your honing skills the stone will be
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Fair enough!
I just waded in with a 1/4/8/16k set of Shaptons...! Nothing like diving in the deep end!
I have one of the Chinese water stones (roughly 12000K), but I don't use it very much. I generally go directly to the strop from my Norton 8K.Quote:
Originally Posted by aragornelessar86
When I started out I had the Norton 4/8 and pretty soon a Shapton pro 15k. I would go right on to the 15k because it was there. Randydance told me that I should shave off of the 8k (after stropping) because if it wasn't sharp off of the 8k it was spinning my wheels to go up the grit ladder.
Now I tried straight razors and honing back in the 1980s and gave it up because I couldn't get 'em sharp or keep them that way. Thanks to Lynn Abrams and the fine folks on this forum I learned how to hone a razor. So part of my personal obsession has been to see just how sharp I can get them off of the rock and the strop.
I have the pastes and sprays and I use them once in a great while but not often. I am still interested in seeing what I can do with various rocks alone. I'm not knocking the pastes or the higher grit stones but lately in spite of having a 30k Shapton pro for instance I shave off of the 8 or sometimes the 12k Naniwa or an Escher. I move on to another razor and start anew rather than moving up further in grit. All of the above is subject to change as the mood strikes me.
A lot of guys end up getting the Chinese 12k. It's inexpensive, and a slow polisher.
100 lapps is the norm. You can get one at woodcraft for 20 bucks. Another thing, a finisher/polisher can also be used on a razor that's just starting to pull/grab, much like a Barber hone, which is 12k, I believe. Many times, I've refreshed an edge on my Nakayama, or Escher. It works like a charm. No need to go to the lower grits unless you really, really have to...So, if you can't find a Barber's hone, another finisher will work for you....
I with you Jimmy, I hardly ever use pastes anymore. However, Lynn's .5 diamond spray on the hard wool felt is a must have. It sort of takes you blade to the next level, and you don't get that diamond paste burn that I always get.....
Also, it's always a good idea to find out who did what to your razor before you owned it, if that's possible.
Did they tape the spine? What did they finish it on? Believe me, it helps down the road when you need to touch up your blade. When I buy a razor off someone, I always ask them what they did to it....
Took the words outta my mouth !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Shaptons are a little different animal, and IMHO an easier system to use...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubear
The Shapton stones if you are paying attention pretty much toss a huge flag up to the user when it is time to switch stones....and this is a big deal when learning. When do I move to the next higher grit???
Learning on the Nortons gives a very solid base of knowledge since there are so many tricks to them...
Also I would like to point out that many people always reccomend a Ch12k for a beginer polishing stone (it's cheap) and although there is nothing wrong with the stone, I never reccomend something that takes, on an average 100 laps to work... There are just way to much many chances of error in those 100 laps for a new honer...
+1 to Glen - once you can consistently get a good edge off an 8K + paste, then you can move onto a higher grit hone and try for a smoother edge from that. If you're after a higher grit hone to move onto once you've got the 8K down, the Chinese 12K is a slow-cutting commonly used stone, available for very cheap ($20 from WoodCraft. You can buy a slurry stone for the C12K from the classifieds here if you want it to cut a bit faster, although this rounds the edge.Other options for polishing hones are the Shapton 16K/30K, the Naniwa 12K, a natural Japanese hone, or a barber hone (available for cheap on EBay, but much smaller than the C12K)
Do you think new honers will buy that? I just saw a thread where a guy bought an expensive Nakayama, and posted, How do I use this? New honers will still buy polishers/finishers. All you can do is tell them how to use them, and give recommendations, but in the end, there gonna buy em....I can't begin to tell you how many C12k Slurries I sold to new guys this year alone....If there gonna do damage on the hone, imagine what they can do with a slurry.....or 4k, 8k for that matter...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosley59
Where did you read/hear that a Chinese 12k with slurry rounds the edge. I heard that happens with prolonged use of paste, but not on rocks. Please explain...Thank you....
Just a quick comment on pastes, pastes refine an edge they should not "sharpen" an edge...If you are depnding on the pastes as a crutch for weak honing then I agree ditch the pastes, but if you know you can shave off the N8k without even using a plain strop, then using the paste to smooth out the edge, you are using it correctly!!!
BTW that is the true test for your honed edge, come straight off the hone with no stropping, and try a test shave see how you do....
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Glen, What about rounding an edge on a finishing hone? I have heard about this on pastes, sprays, etc...but, did I miss something. Can you round your edge on say, a C12k...?
I have heard people say that using slurry "dulls" the edge or "rounds" the edge... I would agree that using a slurry cuts a bevel and the sides well but is limited it how sharp the edge gets... I think you are into semantics here though with a slurry "dulling" the edge...Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
What sort of feedback difference is there between a razor honed up to 8k and one that has been finished/paste-stropped?
I go 1k (if needed), 4k/8k pyramid, 12k, CrO, linen, latigo. After 1k and 8k I check the edge on arm hairs, but I've never tried shaving right after the 8k. I'm not sure if you can explain it in text, but if you can describe how a smoother edge feels on my face then I'd appreciate it.
Thanks all for the advice. I'll just stick with the Nortons for now.
Some sort of paste/compound is probably your cheapest route, it does the eact same thing as a higher grit stone - removes metal. Quality chromium oxide is 0.5 micron, which can be head on a leather strop for a few bucks, while a 0.5 micron hone is quite a bit more, particularly for one that polishes at a decent speed. It's just how much you want to spend for smaller abrasive particles.
There's also lapping films in this range, economical in the short run.
My understanding is that, when using a slurry, you are not only cutting on the bevel (which rests against the stone), but also on the edge as you run into the slurry and some is deflected above the edge and some is forced under the edge. The effects may be minimal, but at a finishing level, you'll still notice them. Some like the slight rounding, as it may cause a razor to feel "smoother" while shaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
To answer the original poster's question, I think that after the 8k you can move to any finisher you like. I believe there is more room to jump at high grits than is typically acknowledge. For example, I go from my Dragon's Tongue (which is estimated at 6-8k) to my Asagi (and Japanese natural finishers are thought to be very high grit) and need less than 70 passes on the Asagi to finish (I'm experimenting with reduced stroke numbers to work my way down).
From Zowada's fantastic website:Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Coticle with slurry:
http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...ticuleWSSm.jpg
Coticle without slurry:
http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...ticuleNSSm.jpg
Check out the site yourself. CH12K looks to give as fine an edge as anything out there (when wielded by Mr. Zowada, anyhow...)
I'm pretty much going to repeat what everyone else has been saying the whole time, but I'll say it anyways. A lot of new honers want to get a bunch of fancy stones, thinking it will kick up the sharpness and improve their shaves. A lot of times, for new guys, the blade is sharp enough when they get it from someone on here or another site though. If you don't have a good understanding of stretching the hairs to stand up, not down flat, and how to hold your razor, you're not going to get a good shave regardless of hones.
If you're getting good shaves and stropping well on a razor you've received in the mail, then maybe it's time to get some hones for touch ups. A Swaty barber's hone is really all you need for that, a CrO strop helps too.
Once you think you're going to get old razors and practice setting bevels, a DMT 1200 or a 1000grit hone is great, then move to a Norton 4/8K.
The norton stone is my favorite. It taught me how to hone without having 60 different stones to mess up edges on. I still, to this day, only use a dmt 1200 for bevels, a Norton 4-8K combo stone, and then finish on either a Coticule, or a Swaty or a CrO strop.
You can shave right off the 8K without anything else or stropping on Leather, I've done it, and it really helps show you what you need to learn on the hones, moving up to pastes and high grits won't fix what a poor shave off the 8K has concerned you.
Glen, what would you recommend as an alternative to the C12K? I think I'm ready to go up one level, and am not wanting to go crazy, just one more really nice finishing hone for a reasonable price, and maybe that will be the last one I buy for a very long time. I've got the Norton set and the C12K, plus a Swaty, but I think there's just one more that I might need, because the C12K is so darn slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Glen,
How would you describe the flag that pops up when using a given Shapton, a flag that says, "O.K., you are ready to quit this stone now"?
In other words, what should one be looking or feeling for?
for me its when I star feel the razor bite the stone, you feel the bevel slide on the stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by figaro
You know, there's always been something that bothered me about the CH12K picture in that series. Tim reports "ten strokes were used on each side of the blade". Now, coming off an 8k, how the heck does a CH12K make that beautiful, shockingly clean edge in TEN STROKES??!Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphim
When the norm is at least 50 before it seems to do much of anything?
Have any of you guys with microscopes seen a CH12K do THAT in ten strokes?
:confused:
[EDIT: I don't mean to sound like I'm questioning Tim's word or anything - far from it. I just can't get that darned picture out of my head once I get up past stroke 140 or so. :D]
interestingly, I didnīt try doing it in 10 strokes.
I always, even before I got the stone, thought I need over 50 strokes.
Maybe someone should just try it.
Use a Norton 8k or maybe a Nani 5k (8k is way too polished)
and do 10, 20 and 40 C12k strokes and see what happens.
Unfortunately I donīt have a C12k anymore
Wow! Those photos of razor edges on the other site are amazing. I was thinking about getting a 4000/8000 and following up with a paste on a balsa hone. From the photos it looks like that may be a great start for a newbie. Still need to work on my stropping, however.
Great stuff here. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brothers
I really wasn't kidding when I said "any" finisher will work after a Norton 8k...
Feel wise I would go the Naniwa 12k myself, the feel of the stone will be rather similar... But honestly I have tried just about everything after it...
Glen is quite right in saying that you can use anything. An 8k is good enough to shave off, so anything that is finer will make the shave better. You could do 1 pass on a C12k and the razor would still be "shave ready," because it was shave ready to begin with.
There are so many finishers out there, and they all work. Some may give a smoother shave or a slightly keener edge, but I really think that, for finishers, it's more a question of how good your honing is in the first place and which hone you personally prefer (maybe the finish it gives, but also cutting speed, feedback, ease of lapping/refreshing, size, cost, etc).
+1 Holli4 explained it much better than I did...Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Though we all know that when it comes to knowledge and experience, yours far exceeds mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun