my 330mate Aoto turned out as fine as my 1k, but I am ok with that I got it cheap. I am talking to So about a stone to fill the 3k - finisher gap too.
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He kind of likes a Maruoyama Shiro suita for that.
I am just waiting for So to give me the total and how to make payment.
Japan Tool - Natural Sharpening Stones - Maruoyama2
I am getting one like this
http://i48.tinypic.com/jiztvs.jpg
just different size
Is that a Maruoyama?
very nice!
Back on topic. Here is a closer shot of my Aoto's surface as I am currently using.
I bought two stones, large size Aoto, year before last. One from 330mate, one from JapanWoodworker.com (IIRC).
I bought from them first, got an attractive, regularly cut, big brick of blue Aoto.. that had small hard inclusions in the primary face which made it horrible to use.
Then I bought from 330mate and paid 1.5x as much for a hand picked vintage Aoto, which had broken corners, some cracks, and sharpens like a dream. Fine stone, ugly as a pig in mud. The other is cosmeticly excellent, and I don't dislike anyone enough to give it to them.
I'm keeping it in case I make an enemy. ymmv.
I think if someone wants a predictable aoto experience, the best way to go is the synthetic aoto. There are a number of sources for those. Hida Tool, japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com, The Japan Woodworker (It's under coarse benchstones) others.
An update,
Although I like my Aoto, I wanted something a little wider to use on blades that I have had to reshape. Say, if I have just corrected a frown I would like to stay on wider stones as long as I can. I have Ohira Green kumori stone I bought on ebay from 330mate. I know it will work in this spot, but the size is small for that use. I contacted 330 mate and ordered the same stone in the 60 size. This would be 70mm by 195mm.
This is from the Tomae layer of Ohira. This Tomae is a softer than some of my other stones and generates a goodly amount of slurry. Tomae is the most uniform layer and should be a nice predictable stone for the 4000 - 6000 range. It is finer than the Aoto. It cuts faster than my BBW and will permit me to change to natural stone for all my blades after 2000. I think you could shave off this stone, but haven't tried.
It is also the last stone I use with slurry (in fact it is soft enough to get slurry no matter what).
I will probably put the smaller one up in the classifieds at some point. I figure someone will want to use it.
I haven't tried going from the 1K to this, basically because I like using the 2K Chocera in between.
Well I got my larger Ohira Tomae stone. It took 5 weeks to arrive. It was definitely harder and seemed finer than what I asked for.
I sent an email to 330mate, but, knowing I was right up against Paypal's deadline for opening a dispute and that he takes days to answer most times, I also opened a paypal dispute. In the dispute I noted that the only reason I did it was to preserve my right to dispute it as the deadline was approaching and the stone appeared different than I was expected.
He asked for pics. I sent some. The same as I sent with the original email, actually. The next email was insulting and called me names.
By this time I had been able to work with the stone some more and realized it was going to be fine.
I replied politely that the stone was OK and I was going to close the dispute. I added that I was saddened by his response because I had purchased 5 stones from him previously with no problems.
He responded with more insults and told me again to go away.
I am almost irritated enough to "sell" a souvenir "330 mate is a rude unpleasant man and poor eBay seller" poster on eBay and send him the link.
Any interest?
Back on subject.
I would be willing to send the Ohira Tomae to someone for testing. I think this is potentially an Aoto substitute to fit between the 1k-2K hone and the 8K stone. I paid $30 for it and, at that price, it is probably worth dealing with 339mate.
Kevin? Holli? Sham?
ygmp 567890
I've had a chance to play with pyment's hone (thanks again), and found it to be a very nice hone indeed. Harder than my Aoto (I really did not like my Aoto being so soft), and also a consistant hone (as far as slurries go...). I played with her with and without slurry, mostly with razors off my Norton 1k, but also tried from my Naniwa 400 (a bit bigger jump than I'd suggest). I think it's a great option for the lower/mid grit range. Personally, I would want a bigger one, but perhaps that is just personal preference. I have no idea what the hone cost or how much variation there is among this type of hone, so I don't know that I would make a general recommendation of this hone, but Pyment has a good one!
I bought it from 330mate on this Ebay listing:
JAPANESE sharpening stone #100 Ohira Green kumori sword - eBay (item 200266041189 end time May-14-10 00:27:01 PDT)
I made an offer of $30 which included shipping
I agree that I felt it was a little small, but a worthwhile stone for the price and a possible Aoto alternative. I did end up buying a larger version of it from him for $125 shipped.
I received an Aoto stone from 330mate about two weeks ago, no problems with shipping, a very quick delivery should the truth be told..
The stone contained none of the flaws some of you have described, such as inclusions or hard veins running through the rock. It did come with multiple broken corners and big cracks, but nothing fatal.
The stone acts as I expect it should, delivering a medium fine finish on the stuff I've tried it out on (old Swedish chisels, to be precise), works both with and without the slurry.
There is an (slightly) annoying tendency for the strong to drag in one area (around one of the cracks) on whatever's being sharpened, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on the sharpening result.
All in all I like it, and for 30 USD delivered to Denmark, I'm quite happy with the experience. Could just be that I got lucky, judging from some of the other stories told in this thread.
I will be ordering an Aoto from Dick just as you have done, Buddel. Their products are always up to par and hopefully will give a good reference against which to judge the 330mate stone.
While the Amakusa Red does have many inclusions if you are patient while lappingit, it can yield a good working area and excellent results on heavier grinds. I really like the softer scratch pattern before 1K. I wouldn't use it on a full hollow or the like.
Quote above is absolutely right. Aoto is not suitable for razors. It is traditionally used for knifes only. Structure of the hone and it's and fragility can damage the edge.
In fact, I also wanted to buy Aoto for initial sharpening. I have one from 330 and the quality of the stone is not excellent.
I asked Morihei san about aoto, and the reply was
we usually use stones in following order
1. Initial sharpening: Arato
2. Middle sharpening: Nakado
3. Finishing
In general, Aoto is used at finishing (usually just before final finishing) and at the middle sharpening..
Aoto is rarely used as Arato (i.e. at initial sharpening)
Aoto is usually very soft and it is fragile.
Using Aoto as finishing or Nakado for knives is good.
But we think it will take away a fine edge of razors because of it’s fragility.
Aoto is fragile, so as you use Aoto, there will be small hollow or chips which sensitive blades of razors will be stuck with.
I am sorry but you are a bit off, there are very good Aoto, although rare, that are very fine stones and also very hard stones.
Take a look at this:
JapaneseNaturalStones.com: Why i do not sell Aotos
Nope, I found substitude for aoto. Morihei recommends Tsushima-do for initial sharpening of razors. I am expecting this in a mail
Tsushima-do is not Arato. But it is Nakado little closed to Finishing stone.
For initial sharpening, we usually start with Arato. But for razors, you do not need to start from Arato.
Tsushima-do is soft stone and it is fragile like Arato.
But it is closer to Nakado than Aoto.
Tsushima-do is fragile. But it won’t damage blades of razors like Aoto does because Tsushima-do has even quality in whole.
Tsushima-do is fragile. So, it is covered by 4 layers of lacquer and Japanese paper.
http://traskrom.users.photofile.ru/p.../144882825.jpg
http://traskrom.users.photofile.ru/p.../144882824.jpg
http://traskrom.users.photofile.ru/p.../144882822.jpg
Tsushima is much finer then Aoto and slower so i will not call it Aoto substitude.
Fragile Tsushimas come from water mountain and not so good for razors they are much cheaper too and way to soft !
But stil much better then those crapy Aotos !
The good Tsushimas come from dry mountain and very expensive super rare too they are super hard and fast will be the best pre polisher for razors, but still not as coarse or as fast as good Aoto !
Super clean and good Aoto can be used for razors but i have only seen one of those :( out of many many Aotos
"Substitude" for initial sharpening :))
No i did not see them in a wail :(
I try to get some links
I think 30 000 - 40 000 yen is aprox
Here are some videos of good Aoto and bad one.
Bad one: I even soaked that one for 5 min. or more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrKNMoW21bQ
Good vintage one: without soaking at all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClCsdCArNKM
And I never said that this is "the universal truth" :)
Sorry, but I don't understand why. I've honed, using Aoto stones, a great number razors, knives, swords.Quote:
In general, aoto is not good for razors
And nothing bad about Aoto, I use the third one now.
And the fourth Aoto is waiting.:)
I don't think so.:)Quote:
Bad one:
Tsushima-do full size stone for initial sharpening of razors
215×80×50, 2.25 kg
http://traskrom.users.photofile.ru/p.../145034799.jpg
bigger size