Put me out of my misery - Naniwas or Coticule

I'm trying to make a decision on new hones. I just returned my norton 4/8k due to embedded grit in the 8k side. I now need new hones and am torn between the 3, 8, and 12k naniwas or a bbw and regular coti.

The naniwas seem like they would require the least amount of learning from me. I expect they will behave pretty similar to the norton. I think the coticule will be more of a learning experience.

The two options work out to similar prices, with a standard grade coti and BBW (both 6x2) being just a hair less expensive. Its only about $10 different.

Help me make a decision, please.

If it were my money I'd get the natural stones and take the little extra learning curve that comes along with it.

That's just me though.:shrug:

If you are just learning, I would recommend the Nani's. The BBW and Coti will also get you there, but the Nani's are more consistant, easier to learn, and will get you to shave ready faster.

Although I've never used the Naniwas, I'm sure they would offer more consistency than a coticule/BBW. But, if you are in it for the love of honing and don't mind a little more a challenge, I would definitely go for the coti/BBW. It takes a bit more practice since each stone is different, but I've always had more satisfaction honing on a natural stone. So my vote is for the coti/BBW.

DISCLAIMER: I am hugely biased towards natural stones, so please keep that in mind when reading my recommendation. :)

naniwas vs coticule is like shooting a compound bow ( naniwas) vs a longbow (coticule) the longbow takes alot of practice to be consistent.

I find my coticule/bbw combo very consistent and easy to use. I have never played with Naniwas so I cannot help with a comparison.

I have both, and use both

My Coticule is a vintage Extra Extra Fine (original stamp)

Let's just compare the high end because on the lower end the Naniwas win, hands down... The Coti with slurry is just not as exact as the Naniwa progression....

On the high end the Nani 12k will give a smoother edge on everything except the older Sheffields, IMHO on those, a extra fine Coti will get a smoother edge.... YMMV of course but I doubt it...

Like was said above, if you're out for a real experience, go for the BBW/Coti.

I've never used the Naniwa's, but I do know the Belgian stones have more "personality" and it may take you a little while to get a feel for how they work, but you may find out that sometimes the more rewarding path, isn't the easiest.

The old Sheffields definitely like a coticule. Smooth! Apart from that, pure personal opinion here, get a fast coticule & you can do almost everything on it. The BBW is really pretty redundant, once you know what you're doing. (Bart on this forum & coticule.be is the man to talk to. Search for his "dilucot" & "unicot" methods on here to start.)

The fast ones still have good cutting power when used w/ water (yes, water!), although slurry dilution does take a bit of time. Synthetics are faster there, no doubt about it. The up side is you generally only have to do it once--touchups can be done on plain water, unless the edge needs a lot of work. I'd still have a dedicated bevel setter, though. (D8E works well for this purpose as coticule slurry will have no problem w/ that deep scratch pattern.)

One thing, though--the fast ones Bart talks about & has for sale are bout stones & most/all are standard grade (the black lines/spots are manganese which is much softer than both the stone & the steel & does not interfere in any way whatever with honing.) This is cosmetic, but it's your choice--big select grade stones are pricey; ask me how I know...;) FWIW, my select 8x3 has a lot of figuring on it (but no spots/lines). It's a "Le Petit Blanche"--a fast layer.

As always, YMMV. (What else is new?:))

I gotta point this out, because it is kinda funny really...

So far on this thread only two people have said for sure they have used the Naniwa stones, and a Coticule.. There are a couple of people that I don't know for sure as they didn't say....

But of the two people that have used both, we both recommend the Naniwa set up, I'm sorry but I find that semi humorus.... :)

For the record, I have used both (dunno if you were counting me Glen), though I've only used the Naniwa's briefly while Lynn taught me how to hone.

I was counting you....
Nothing against everyone else either, it just struck me as funny....

I've also used both--in the end, I preferred the coticule, specifically the smoothness & feedback. And the flexibility. I'm sort of getting into a minimalist phase w/ shaving right now--except for razors & soaps & aftershaves & strops & colognes & scuttles & eventually a Nakayama too! :D

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Originally Posted by dnjrboy

I'm trying to make a decision on new hones. I just returned my norton 4/8k due to embedded grit in the 8k side. I now need new hones and am torn between the 3, 8, and 12k naniwas or a bbw and regular coti.

The naniwas seem like they would require the least amount of learning from me. I expect they will behave pretty similar to the norton. I think the coticule will be more of a learning experience.

The two options work out to similar prices, with a standard grade coti and BBW (both 6x2) being just a hair less expensive. Its only about $10 different.

Help me make a decision, please.

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So this is tough, because you're looking at two very different options. The Naniwas are fast, consistent and artificial. They are like a machine, they're science.

The Coticule is traditional, romantic and more artful. You have to spend more time with it, and hone yourself as much as you hone your razor. This is an art.

One setup is for people who will be honing a lot of razors, and are impatient or have other things to do.

One is for people who want to get intimate with his hone and his razors, and are perhaps a little more spiritual (this is true, perhaps, of all natural hones...)

So what are you looking for? A simple, cut and dried system, or something with a bit more flavor, and a bit more required skill?

(FWIW, I've used both, but I didn't give the coti enough time/patience, sold it and am regretting it. Another should be on its way soon...)

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Originally Posted by JimR

So this is tough, because you're looking at two very different options. The Naniwas are fast, consistent and artificial. They are like a machine, they're science.

The Coticule is traditional, romantic and more artful. You have to spend more time with it, and hone yourself as much as you hone your razor. This is an art.

One setup is for people who will be honing a lot of razors, and are impatient or have other things to do.

One is for people who want to get intimate with his hone and his razors, and are perhaps a little more spiritual (this is true, perhaps, of all natural hones...)

So what are you looking for? A simple, cut and dried system, or something with a bit more flavor, and a bit more required skill?

(FWIW, I've used both, but I didn't give the coti enough time/patience, sold it and am regretting it. Another should be on its way soon...)

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Loved your description of the differences Jim. I couldn't agree more. As for me I am using the Naniwas almost exclusively lately. I'm disciplining myself to really get to know each hone by using each option for an extended period of time rather than jumping from natural, to Shapton, to Noton to Naniwa etcetera. Too much of good things. :) I love the Naniwas but I will never give up a couple of my coticules. They are going to be creamated with me and the ashes spread at Ardennes in the Deep Rock vein. :cool:

As for a recommendation, any of them will be fine. The important thing is to use them and get to know their nuances. They will all get you there if you do your part.

Alright, I finally made my decision. I have an 3k and an 8k Naniwa SS on the way.

I chose simple and repeatable. I'd rather that my method did not vary during the honing process, and there just seemed to be too many variables with a coti.

Thanks for the opinions everyone.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I gotta point this out, because it is kinda funny really...

So far on this thread only two people have said for sure they have used the Naniwa stones, and a Coticule.. There are a couple of people that I don't know for sure as they didn't say....

But of the two people that have used both, we both recommend the Naniwa set up, I'm sorry but I find that semi humorus.... :)

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:rofl2: Exactly why I put a disclaimer on my post. I have a thing for all naturals. (I was referring to hones, but hey, that's true as well :D)

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

:rofl2: Exactly why I put a disclaimer on my post. I have a thing for all naturals. (I was referring to hones, but hey, that's true as well :D)

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HA !!!! Ok now that was funny :)

Yes, I also hate cars with fake, tuned exhaust noises. What's wrong with the pure sound of the engine. Not to mention fake carbon fiber, fake ram air intakes, and fake exhaust tips. ...we're talking about cars, right?

I got the naniwas, I really like them.

I might take a set of Naniwa's if someone gave em to me, but I wouldn't buy any. Not saying anything bad about them, just that I prefer "naturals" as well LOL...in ALL aspects ;)

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Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

Although I've never used the Naniwas, I'm sure they would offer more consistency than a coticule/BBW. But, if you are in it for the love of honing and don't mind a little more a challenge, I would definitely go for the coti/BBW. It takes a bit more practice since each stone is different, but I've always had more satisfaction honing on a natural stone. So my vote is for the coti/BBW.

DISCLAIMER: I am hugely biased towards natural stones, so please keep that in mind when reading my recommendation. :)

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Right onDave! I agree whole heartedly! MikeB

I have used and own both. The naniwa's are easier and they are all exactly the same.

Coticules are like a woman. You dont know what you have when you first get it. You go on a few dates, discover what its likes and dislikes are.

Then you live happily ever after or cheat on it with an escher.

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Originally Posted by JimR

(FWIW, I've used both, but I didn't give the coti enough time/patience, sold it and am regretting it. Another should be on its way soon...)

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I sold mine and haven't regretted it at all. Good riddance to it.
As coticules go, it was not a bad one at all, but I am not partial to them. Ever since I switched to Japanese naturals, I hadn't touched it anymore.

I like artificial stones especially for setting bevels, because they are faster (relatively speaking of course) and more predictable. I am free of HAD (as long as I stay away from So)

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I sold mine and haven't regretted it at all. Good riddance to it.[/SIZE]

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Wow Bruno, a Belgian hating the coticule! I'm half expecting you to hate beer and chocolate too. :p

As others have indicated here, the coticule needs a little learning. I too gave up on my first one, and much later when I had learned more about straights I returned to it. It took me another couple of months of practice before I started to get consistent results. I couldn't do without it now.

I love chocolate and beer. And fries. And jenever. And most Belgian things.
Coticules however...

I have 1 blue / yellow combo stone lying near the kitchen sink for honing knives. I use the yellow side for removing metal and the blue side for making it sharp. Imo, the only thing a coticule is good for is removing metal. It's waay too finicky to be useful. The yellow side only seems to make my edges duller instead of sharper.

IME the coticule is a wonderful stone for honing razors. The old barbers in the USA, Newark, NJ area that I talked to in the '80s called them 'soap stones' and used the yellow only and with lather as the honing vehicle.

Bart's posts taught me how to realize the full potential of the coticule/bbw. Now here is where I may get controversial.... the edge I get off of a coticule is very comfortable and forgiving. IOW, it is not as sharp .... or do I mean harsh ... as the edge I would get off of my Shapton pros or my Naniwas.

It is like a Derby blade in a DE as opposed to a Feather blade. I can get an irritation free shave with a coticule honed blade with less attention to pressure than with a blade honed on synthetics. I also agree with Slartibartfast that if I want to 'cheat' and follow up with an Escher that the edge will be even better....i.e. sharper while maintaining the smoothness.

It is my belief that those old barbers venerated the coticule because of that forgiving and smooth nature of resulting edges. They had less worry about giving their customers irritation when they shaved them as they frequently did up until the '70s when the business started changing and barber shop shaves began to be rarity in the USA. Just IMHO.... as always YMMV. :)

I'm finding that I like the edges off of my natural stones (both Japanese and Coticule) better than the edges off my Shaptons for the reasons that you mentioned Jimmy. I'm just waiting for a couple of months to get my Escher and then I'll be complete :p

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I like artificial stones especially for setting bevels, because they are faster (relatively speaking of course) and more predictable. I am free of HAD (as long as I stay away from So)

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Completely plan on keeping my DMTs for just that purpose. The final edge off the EEE is completely shaveable, but I am looking for something a bit more. Have a Thuringian coming from Kees which should help and well the rest is just experimentation as I'm sure we all know.

I got a pretty good kick out of reading this thread and thank all the participants. I am still using Naniwa Supers, Shaptons and My Norton 4K/8K and rotate frequently getting pretty consistent and reliable results from all of them.

As far as a single stone method, I have tried Bart's method on the Coticule,Escher, Asagi, Syperdo Ultra, Arkansas Translucent, Chinese 12K and a couple obscure stones that I have. You can actually get that method to work on most of these stones, but a lot of effort and after the bevel is set. Not surprisingly the most consistent stones here were the Coticule, Escher and Asagi and they took some playing with to start getting there with slurry consistency and stroke numbers. I have put a couple hundred razors so far through that method and still get a kick every time a razor ends up shave ready from it. Got to admit that I still use the .5 diamond on felt when done.........:)

Now for finishing, I really like the Escher, Asagi, Kiita, Naniwa Chosera 10K but not as much as the Naniwa Super 12K, the Shapton 16K and a Charnley Forest. The Coticule will work too, but not my preference result wise, but still a decent result. It is always fun to play with the Naturals, but when it comes to needing a razor sharp and counting on getting it there virtually every time, I go with the others mentioned. I also find it easier to teach people to hone with a repeatable method and a synthetic water stone and then let them experiment with other hones after they start getting successful results (purely personal preference here).

I really would hate to decide this question on an either or basis.

I also might add that it is really hard to give someone an accurate opinion when you haven't used both the stones being asked about. Maybe that's just an internet thing and no offense to you'se guys.

Have fun.

I'm definitely going to start "cheating" w/ the diamond spray on hard felt--sooner rather than later. :)

The coticule is amazingly smooth & can be quite sharp if used as a finisher after a synthetic progression. (That simply guarantees no residual slurry dulling; the bevel tip is as thin as possible, given the grit of the stones used to hone it.) Maybe that's because I got one that still cuts on water. Don't know.) For a quick, sharp edge w/ repeatability in mind, I do have to say synthetics are faster than diluting slurry. (Now that my diamond films have gone on to their eternal reward, a Norton is on my Buy list).

My barber recently got a box of str8s that I get to hone & test shave :D (4 of which should be great once honed) & I just want to get them sharp quick. 1 is a Red Imp, 1 is a W&B full hollow smiler. The Dilucot method is really fun though, & very rewarding when I get a razor shave-ready using it. Personally, I like both methods for different situations.

Here's my advice to dnjrboy and anyone else starting out honing wondering what type of hone setup to get: don't worry too much about it.

Send two razors to Lynn and have him finish one on a coticule and the other on a Naniwa. See if you can tell the difference; my guess is not. Skill is everything; honing equipment (as long as you choose one of the tried-and-true setups) is secondary.

I'm convinced that for all the advantages and disadvantages we like to talk about, the vast majority of honers ultimately settle on a given setup as their favorite for largely aesthetic reasons. (It may be different for Lynn and other honemeisters who hone tons of razors on a daily basis; I'm talking about the majority who simply want good edges on their own razors.)

For some, the idea of honing on natural rocks is irresistible, romantic, etc. For others, the idea of precision-made instruments doing a precise job is irresistible. It's a question of temperament and personality. Both groups manage, after a period of trial and error, to master the technical skills to get great edges.

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Here's my advice to dnjrboy and anyone else starting out honing wondering what type of hone setup to get: don't worry too much about it.

Send two razors to Lynn and have him finish one on a coticule and the other on a Naniwa. See if you can tell the difference; my guess is not. Skill is everything; honing equipment (as long as you choose one of the tried-and-true setups) is secondary.

I'm convinced that for all the advantages and disadvantages we like to talk about, the vast majority of honers ultimately settle on a given setup as their favorite for largely aesthetic reasons. (It may be different for Lynn and other honemeisters who hone tons of razors on a daily basis; I'm talking about the majority who simply want good edges on their own razors.)

For some, the idea of honing on natural rocks is irresistible, romantic, etc. For others, the idea of precision-made instruments doing a precise job is irresistible. It's a question of temperament and personality. Both groups manage, after a period of trial and error, to master the technical skills to get great edges.

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Spot on, imho.