Hones in New Zealand?

I have been preparing to shave with a straight razor for a while now but I am lacking a few necessary items.

I need a hone (my razor is currently being sanded with 80 grit paper).
I also may need a brush, however I may have one lying around.
And finally I need some good soap.

My main concern at the moment is the hone, as I know where I can get a brush and soap when the need arises, however I do not want to pay too much for a it.

I have been looking on New Zealand's online classifieds Trade Me – New Zealand online auctions and classifieds. Browse, buy and sell online on trademe.co.nz but I have been unable to find a suitable hone. My local knife shop (The House of Knives) has a 6000 grit oilstone for $100 (NZD), I do not wish to pay this much for a hone, but if I have to I will.

Any tips are helpful,

Joundill.

Hi Joundill and welcome!


If you haven't already done this - go to the top of this page and click on the Wiki button. Here you'll find a bunch of useful info.

In the Razor maintenance section is the following: What hone(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki

I'd suggest you first get your razor honed by one of our members - see the Classifieds under Member Services: Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

If you're keen to restore razors, by all means go for it - but it's worth having a properly honed razor that you can compare to.

You really only need a strop and maybe a barber hone (pretty common and inexpensive) to keep your razor in good shape.

Also - don't underestimate stropping, it really makes a difference.
Have a read through the relevant sections in the forums eg. Strops - Straight Razor Place Forums. I also like the 'stropping is king' thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ping-king.html and the following: http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...important.html

Regarding original question - check out local suppliers for hones, but don't forget to compare these to overseas suppliers. Sometimes it works out cheaper to get it from overseas!

Well - hope that wasn't an overload!

Let us know how you get on.

All the best,
Michael.

You might also be interested to know that there are some hones that are found in your part of the world. Hone-slate and Lydian Stone (a very fine-grained stone that can be used as a hone) are found in Kaikoura and Kakanui; and whetstones are found in the vicinity of Otago, although I haven't been able to find a more precise location thus far.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A_S

You might also be interested to know that there are some hones that are found in your part of the world. Hone-slate and Lydian Stone (a very fine-grained stone that can be used as a hone) are found in Kaikoura and Kakanui; and whetstones are found in the vicinity of Otago, although I haven't been able to find a more precise location thus far.

Kindest regards,
Alex

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That's fantastic Alex. I'll be sure to look into these stones. I live at the bottom of the North Island and Otago is quite an expensive journey, so I'll be sure to research it on the internet and get in touch with some people.

Also, thanks for the information Michael, it is quite useful. I have already used the wiki and I am planning on buying a cheap razor soon, so I'll be able to send it of for honing for comparison.

I'm in Dunedin, and I've just bought my stuff off this site or from an internet vendor - it appears to be the best way to get some items (like a J-Nat or coti, for example - not that I own either). When shipping and exchange rates are factored in, it still often is a better deal to buy internationally than from NZ shops. Since you haven't used a straight before, I'd also recommend you get the razor professionally honed before you start so you have a known target point to aim for when you hone it up yourself- there's a couple of guys in Oz who hone razors (Onimaru being the only one I can remember off the top of my head). Even if you have a second pro-honed razor, honing is not something you can just jump into - start out with a pro-honed blade, use it til it needs re-honing, THEN look at honing it yourself, by that point you should know what's sharp or not, and how that razor should feel when sharp.

You'll also definitely need a strop to keep the razor sharp, try ruprazor's filly strop, or a Fromm strop off Amazon, or one of the vintage strops from the SRP classifieds.

If you're working on your razor with 80 grit sandpaper, you're gonna need mre than one hone to get that back to shave ready.

If you're concerned with spending money at this point in time, I would consider making/buying a pasted balsa strop, and picking up a leather strop, and have your razor hones by someone else.

If you really want to pick up a hone, look into a barber hone (plenty of them show up on ebay for good prices.)

Good luck :)

I already have a strop, and I have 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper which I can place on a block if I want to attempt to cut a V into the blade. It seems that 2000 grit sandpaper can get the edge fairly sharp (it will cut hair, but it pulls) and I think a Norton 4/8 will do the rest. I was just wondering if there is anywhere in New Zealand which sells hones.

One option is abrasive film on something flat like glass.
Look on carpentry sites and shops. The flats and films
they use for wood chisels works wonders. One advantage
of film is that it is light and can ship via common air-mail.

Also it is possible to make hones with loose abrasive or pastes
on soft and hard wood. Rock polishers often have these
pastes and abrasives in bulk. These are the same abrasives that
amateur telescope makers use. If there is an astronomy club
give them a visit (bring a couple of small jars in case you get lucky).
I have a couple ounces of 8000 grit that I use for a lot of sharpening
purposes, not much just a pinch like a pinch of salt on wood or leather.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

One option is abrasive film on something flat like glass.
Look on carpentry sites and shops. The flats and films
they use for wood chisels works wonders. One advantage
of film is that it is light and can ship via common air-mail.

Also it is possible to make hones with loose abrasive or pastes
on soft and hard wood. Rock polishers often have these
pastes and abrasives in bulk. These are the same abrasives that
amateur telescope makers use. If there is an astronomy club
give them a visit (bring a couple of small jars in case you get lucky).
I have a couple ounces of 8000 grit that I use for a lot of sharpening
purposes, not much just a pinch like a pinch of salt on wood or leather.

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Wow, that's very helpful. I'm sure I won't have trouble finding some rock hounds, and I think I know somebody who may have the loose abrasives you are talking about.

If you end up using cerium oxide to finish your razor edge, don't breathe the dust. It's not at all good for your lungs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

If you end up using cerium oxide to finish your razor edge, don't breathe the dust. It's not at all good for your lungs.

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Aha, I'll make sure I have a mask. Would a dust mask work? Or would I need a better quality filter?

I use a paper dust mask and make the outside surface wet to catch the airborn particles. Setting up a small electric fan behind you will send the dust away from you. The dust is quite visible. The MSDS sheet rates this dust as being a health hazard similar to diatemaceous earth.
Be careful.

:gl: Jerry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joundill

Aha, I'll make sure I have a mask. Would a dust mask work? Or would I need a better quality filter?

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With any abrasive dust is a hazard. Since most of us
hone wet and shave wet there is little problem.

Overheating steel can wreck the temper so grinding wet
is almost always the right solution. Even with loose
grit folks use water, wax, oil to keep the grit in place
and things cool.

However for those grinding or otherwise generating dust
wear a dust mask and organize the work place with air flow
that keeps you and other people safe. In a home shop that
can be done with simple exhaust fans and baffles. In an industrial
situation those fans may need to involve filters and scrubbers.
Fine silica and other air born grit is at the heart of some
nasty lung problems so caution is in order. Wood dust,
and wood dust from exotic woods requires caution. As such
most wood working shops and machine tool shops have masks
at various price points. So use common sense.

Since most of use work wet this is just not an issue.

Carba-Tec in Auckland sells King stones but be sitting down when you see the price of the 8k. The 6k is reasonable, tho personally I wouldn't shave off 6k.

Looks like they may also sell coti bouts too! If so, I may have to snaffle me one up.
And could this here be a translucent Arkansas I see?
The prices are a bit steep, but nowhere near as steep as those of the King stones (I just about sh*t myself when I saw the cost of the 10k!)

They seem like a new line. Didn't have those last year IIRC.
That Arkansas does look translucent but you'd best check before dropping the cash.
Yep the IceBear 10k is clearly not a bargain.:roflmao

I had a look at those hones and they're exactly what I'm looking for, I just need to decide on the grits and how fine to go now :P

I'd say get the 800 (grits listed there will almost certainly be JIS since these are Japanese stones, where 800 JIS is equal to a Norton 1K), 4k (equal to Norton 8K) and 8k (equivalent to Shapton 12K) if you're set on buying man-made hones - that'll take you from bevel setting to refining the edge to a nicely polished edge. If you're going to be removing a lot of metal ( e.g you buy old razors off TradeMe and restore them yourself) you might want to get a 300 as well for breadknifing frowns or nicks out on.

Alternatively, get the 800 and 4k, and replace the 8K with one of the coti bouts I mentioned earlier - significantly cheaper, and they'll put a great final edge on a razor. The beauty of the coti is that with a slurry stone (check out the SRP classifieds - Zib sells some) you can take a razor from bevel setting the whole way to shave-ready, so you could even replace the 4K with the coti if you're really keen, as well as cutting out that gap in the progression (going 1K to 4K (Norton 1K to Norton 8K) is probably a bit of a leap, although I do know of members here who've done it with this brand of stones without much trouble - it's just a matter of taste and skill, I guess).

They also have J-Nats there for $100 and a C12K for $70-ish if you want a finer finisher than a coti or 8K - personally I'd go for the J-Nat at the price. So you can either go 800, 4K, and finish off on a $200 8K, or spend the same amount and go 800, 4K, coti bout ($60 for a 40 sq cm or $100 for a 60 sq cm bout), and finish on that $100 J-Nat for what will almost certainly be a smoother final edge.

I know what I'm wanting to buy now from there (may have to drop hints for that J-Nat for my birthday . . .)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosley59

I'd say get the 800 (grits listed there will almost certainly be JIS since these are Japanese stones, where 800 JIS is equal to a Norton 1K), 4k (equal to Norton 8K) and 8k (equivalent to Shapton 12K) if you're set on buying man-made hones - that'll take you from bevel setting to refining the edge to a nicely polished edge. If you're going to be removing a lot of metal ( e.g you buy old razors off TradeMe and restore them yourself) you might want to get a 300 as well for breadknifing frowns or nicks out on.

Alternatively, get the 800 and 4k, and replace the 8K with one of the coti bouts I mentioned earlier - significantly cheaper, and they'll put a great final edge on a razor. The beauty of the coti is that with a slurry stone (check out the SRP classifieds - Zib sells some) you can take a razor from bevel setting the whole way to shave-ready, so you could even replace the 4K with the coti if you're really keen, as well as cutting out that gap in the progression (going 1K to 4K (Norton 1K to Norton 8K) is probably a bit of a leap, although I do know of members here who've done it with this brand of stones without much trouble - it's just a matter of taste and skill, I guess).

They also have J-Nats there for $100 and a C12K for $70-ish if you want a finer finisher than a coti or 8K - personally I'd go for the J-Nat at the price. So you can either go 800, 4K, and finish off on a $200 8K, or spend the same amount and go 800, 4K, coti bout ($60 for a 40 sq cm or $100 for a 60 sq cm bout), and finish on that $100 J-Nat for what will almost certainly be a smoother final edge.

I know what I'm wanting to buy now from there (may have to drop hints for that J-Nat for my birthday . . .)

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Aha. My birthday is on the 22nd, but I'm doubting that anyone will go to the trouble of getting me a stone. I'm keeping my eye out for others and I'm planning on buying a couple of stones when I get a job.

And how old will sir be turning? If you buy youself a coti bout for now and use that with a slurry stone (using Bart's UniCot method, you can set bevels on a coti and refine and edge from there, simply with one stone and some water), I may have a King 4k (i.e one of the ones Carba-Tec sells) I can give you in early March when I get me some new hones (tossing up between a full set of Naniwas or a coti and a Shapton 1K). If I can't afford to buy new hones like I'm hoping to, you'll still have a decent finishing stone you can build on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosley59

And how old will sir be turning? If you buy youself a coti bout for now and use that with a slurry stone (using Bart's UniCot method, you can set bevels on a coti and refine and edge from there, simply with one stone and some water), I may have a King 4k (i.e one of the ones Carba-Tec sells) I can give you in early March when I get me some new hones (tossing up between a full set of Naniwas or a coti and a Shapton 1K). If I can't afford to buy new hones like I'm hoping to, you'll still have a decent finishing stone you can build on.

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I'll be 17 :)
How much will you want for that hone? I'll be at University, so I'll be significantly poorer than I am now and so I'll need to make sure I have the money at the time :P

That idea about using a coti and slurry seems like quite a good idea. If I'm breadknifing a blade I assume I can use the aluminium oxide (I think?) oilstones that you can get from knife stores and maybe The Warehouse.

Unless you're in the habit of buying frowning/nicked old blades off TradeMe, you shouldn't need to breadknife, and unless you have a full rotation of hones it would probably take you forever to get an edge on a razor with just a coti. If you have a razor that'll need to be breadknifed, I'd put it aside for now and just buy a cheapy from the SRP classifieds - get it properly honed and use that. Once you've dulled it enough to need re-honing, you'll probably be in a better position to be able to buy some hones.
If I get rid of it, the hone'd be free - it was a PIF from a member here, so I'm doing the same - it's kinda against the spirit of a PIF to profit from it. Whether or not I get rid of it depends on my finances and if I can find enough work to afford a full set of Naniwas (being a Uni student in Dunedin during a recession sucks when you're looking for a job). Otherwise, you may have to wait a little while (July-ish) to get a hold of it. If I do get the set though, I may also have a 1K (not a 1200) I can also PIF you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosley59

Unless you're in the habit of buying frowning/nicked old blades off TradeMe, you shouldn't need to breadknife, and unless you have a full rotation of hones it would probably take you forever to get an edge on a razor with just a coti. If you have a razor that'll need to be breadknifed, I'd put it aside for now and just buy a cheapy from the SRP classifieds - get it properly honed and use that. Once you've dulled it enough to need re-honing, you'll probably be in a better position to be able to buy some hones.
If I get rid of it, the hone'd be free - it was a PIF from a member here, so I'm doing the same - it's kinda against the spirit of a PIF to profit from it. Whether or not I get rid of it depends on my finances and if I can find enough work to afford a full set of Naniwas (being a Uni student in Dunedin during a recession sucks when you're looking for a job). Otherwise, you may have to wait a little while (July-ish) to get a hold of it. If I do get the set though, I may also have a 1K (not a 1200) I can also PIF you.

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I feel your pain. I'm currently in Lower Hutt and I have no real qualifications and Lower Hutt is full of people and has few businesses. I think Hamilton has more jobs available at the moment, so I should be able to pick one up there before I move to Waikato University.

Also, I wasn't considering buying a really coarse hone, but it's good to know they're there. I believe I saw one for $5 a while ago. Also, I think The King of Knives has a 2000 grit stone for $40. I'll have to look into it :P

The powdered abrasives idea sounds pretty good to me for now, as it appears that they aren't extremely expensive, however they may be a bit difficult to find.

I just looked long and hard at my finances, and I think I won't be getting any new hones until July (my birthday) due to needing a lot of stuff, and hones being an optional extra (I can just use my DE until I can afford hones, should my straights become too dull to use). If you're willing to wait a bit, I'm still happy to PIF you the hone(s), but you may have to get the razor honed by a pro during that time while you wait, so yo don't end up buying a hone that will later prove to be extraneous.
Reading back over the thread, I see you're currently sanding a blade down with 80 grit paper - you'll definitely need a coarse hone (200 -1K) to set the bevel after finishing the sanding, as you'll have damaged or destroyed whatever bevel happened to be there, and will have to work from scratch as a result. Search the forum for "grit comparison chart" - there's a .pdf file somewhere that compares various brands so you know what stones are equivalent to each other - very useful if you're looking for a hone but have multiple brands to choose from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosley59

I just looked long and hard at my finances, and I think I won't be getting any new hones until July (my birthday) due to needing a lot of stuff, and hones being an optional extra (I can just use my DE until I can afford hones, should my straights become too dull to use). If you're willing to wait a bit, I'm still happy to PIF you the hone(s), but you may have to get the razor honed by a pro during that time while you wait, so yo don't end up buying a hone that will later prove to be extraneous.
Reading back over the thread, I see you're currently sanding a blade down with 80 grit paper - you'll definitely need a coarse hone (200 -1K) to set the bevel after finishing the sanding, as you'll have damaged or destroyed whatever bevel happened to be there, and will have to work from scratch as a result. Search the forum for "grit comparison chart" - there's a .pdf file somewhere that compares various brands so you know what stones are equivalent to each other - very useful if you're looking for a hone but have multiple brands to choose from.

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Awesome. I was reading a thread about setting bevels and it seems that it's possible to set a bevel with a Naniwa (?) 4k stone. Also I can wait until whenever you have new hones :P

I've considered going into Smith & Smith to ask about cerium oxide.

Thanks,

Joundill

I think it might have been a Norton 4K you read about - Naniwas are also JIS grit like the King hone I mentioned a bit earlier, so Naniwa 4K=Norton 8K - very fine, and won't set a bevel very fast at all. Norton 4/8K comobs will set the bevel, but again, it'll take a wee while, hence why most experienced members here set bevels using a 1k or below, then refine that edge by progressing up the grits.

Yeah, I realised that even a Norton 4k would be quite fine. I can quite easily get coarser stones, it's just 4k and up that seem hard to find.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joundill

Awesome. I was reading a thread about setting bevels and it seems that it's possible to set a bevel with a Naniwa (?) 4k stone. Also I can wait until whenever you have new hones :P
.....

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Setting a bevel requires a sequence of abrasives from coarse
down to about 4K. After about 4K you are in the land of honing
and polishing.

If you are cash scrapped you can build excellent bevel setting blocks more than good
enough for one or two razors by gluing common black abrasive paper to
flat wood or glass (with the sharp edges removed). A cabinet maker
with a joiner or planer can take stable scraps of wood and give them
a very flat surface. If you wish to use some of the contact adhesive
abrasive papers common in a carpentry shop seal the wood with a couple
applications of any thinned varnish or shellac. This is the same
type of trick a carpenter would use to build hones for wood chisels.

If you wear them out on two razors you are overdoing the honing process.

Besides in no time you will want to go back to this same cabinet maker
and conn him into turning you a handle to glue a knot of badger hair
into for a brush. You might have to sweep out the shop a couple dozen
times to pay.... but what the hey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Setting a bevel requires a sequence of abrasives from coarse
down to about 4K. After about 4K you are in the land of honing
and polishing.

If you are cash scrapped you can build excellent bevel setting blocks more than good
enough for one or two razors by gluing common black abrasive paper to
flat wood or glass (with the sharp edges removed). A cabinet maker
with a joiner or planer can take stable scraps of wood and give them
a very flat surface. If you wish to use some of the contact adhesive
abrasive papers common in a carpentry shop seal the wood with a couple
applications of any thinned varnish or shellac. This is the same
type of trick a carpenter would use to build hones for wood chisels.

If you wear them out on two razors you are overdoing the honing process.

Besides in no time you will want to go back to this same cabinet maker
and conn him into turning you a handle to glue a knot of badger hair
into for a brush. You might have to sweep out the shop a couple dozen
times to pay.... but what the hey.

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Haha. Yeah, I've got a few flat surfaces (a fair bit of flat wood, and maybe some glass) and I was planning on giving the razor a bevel using 800-2000 grit sandpaper (800, 1000, 1200, 2000) :P

I found some shale (at least I think it's shale) which when polished sparkles (probably small quartz crystals). I'm attempting to grind it into a crude small rectangular prism so I can attempt to hone my pocket knife with it. I have absolutely no idea if it will work, and it doesn't bother me if it doesn't but it's a good time waster for a while.

Quote:

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As I read through the forums, I get the feeling that bevel setting is associated with for the most part a 1K stone and if you need to do some serious repairing of an edge a 220 stone.
I wanted to let you know that a ton of razors actually do very well with re-establishing an existing bevel on either a 3K, 4K or 5K stone vs. going to the 1K every time. Please remember that I always try to go for less whether it be strokes on a hone or razor wear as a result of honing. Lately I have been using my Naniwa Super Stone 5K probably more than any stone out there and have been using it for re-establishing bevels too. That being said, the Naniwa Super 3K, Shapton 4K and Norton 4K will all work. Personal preference and confidence level go a long way here. This method will also work with a Coticule with heavy slurry.

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That's from Lynn, so you'd better believe it.

Lynn Abrams On Honing - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Naniwa 4k will apparently work, even if it is the equivalent of a Norton 8k.

That's re-establishing an existing bevel - i.e getting a previously shave-ready razor back to shave-readiness by refreshing the bevel then refining it again. Setting a bevel is different, especially on a freshly sanded blade, which will likely have little of the old bevel remaining and will need to be honed from scratch. That's not to say the Naniwa 4K won't set the bevel, it'll just take forever to do it
Think of it like touching up the paint on a badly scratched panel on your car, vs painting the whole thing from primer up - while a fine brush (Naniwa 4K) might be great for doing the scratches, doing the whole car with that same brush would take forever and be faster with a spraygun (coarse hone).

BTW, I may have a lead on a honing service in NZ - the guy hones hairdressers scissors, but my friend (a hairdresser) says he also sharpens straights and knives. I'm going to give him a call on Monday and check out locations and prices, as well as if he as any experience honing straights. If the price is good I may unleash him on one of my shitty old blades and let you know what he's like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mosley59

That's re-establishing an existing bevel - i.e getting a previously shave-ready razor back to shave-readiness by refreshing the bevel then refining it again. Setting a bevel is different, especially on a freshly sanded blade, which will likely have little of the old bevel remaining and will need to be honed from scratch. That's not to say the Naniwa 4K won't set the bevel, it'll just take forever to do it
Think of it like touching up the paint on a badly scratched panel on your car, vs painting the whole thing from primer up - while a fine brush (Naniwa 4K) might be great for doing the scratches, doing the whole car with that same brush would take forever and be faster with a spraygun (coarse hone).

BTW, I may have a lead on a honing service in NZ - the guy hones hairdressers scissors, but my friend (a hairdresser) says he also sharpens straights and knives. I'm going to give him a call on Monday and check out locations and prices, as well as if he as any experience honing straights. If the price is good I may unleash him on one of my shitty old blades and let you know what he's like.

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Awesome, it'd be nice to know a place where I can get blades honed in New Zealand. :P

And, yeah, I see what you mean about bevel setting, my 1 & 2k grit sandpapers do a nice job of cutting a bevel (blade will cut hair, but it pulls).

The consensus among the honemeisters on here seems to be that once the bevel is set properly, you should be able to pop hairs. The hones after that just smooth and refine the edge so it's even and polished and not as harsh on your skin.

I'll keep that in mind when I finally attempt to hone this razor. I've got a while until I have to shave, it seems that the general consensus is that I look 13. I'm blonde so that helps :)

Hi Joundill

Have my grandad's old Bengall (TR Cadman & Sons). Took it in to the House of Knives in Petone. Their sharpening guy doesn't do straights but the guy in Auckland does. Cost me $12 and took about 10 days to come back.

Now I can't say just how good a honing job he did as it's my first and like others I am not aware of a "honemeister" here in NZ. That said - I have been managing to get what I feel is a pretty reasonable shave (for a beginner) and figured the $12 outlay wasn't too bad as a starting experiment.

I think there may be a couple more of grandad's raqzors out there. I guess now that I'm enjoying the straight experience it may be time to track another down and look into getting a pro-honing job done somewhere. Maybe Oz "Onimaru"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nzFuzzy

Now I can't say just how good a honing job he did as it's my first and like others I am not aware of a "honemeister" here in NZ. That said - I have been managing to get what I feel is a pretty reasonable shave (for a beginner) and figured the $12 outlay wasn't too bad as a starting experiment.

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Assuming you're using good technique with proper skin stretching if the razor doesn't pull I feel like it is a good job. With me where the rubber really meets the road is if I can get a smooth shave on the knob of the chin and on either side of the windpipe. For me that is what separates the so-so edge from the 'good' edge.

This is awesome, $12 is reasonable, even if it might not be the best hone, it's still better than nothing.