HELP!!! Please help verify if stone is Karasu

Hi all, I am new here but I have visit this forum quite a number of times before I finally decide to switch from triple blade to straight razor shaving due to sensitive skin(whenever I finish shaving using triple, my whole mouth is red and itchy).

Here comes main topic :

Today, I have receive 2 stone(Karasu & Iyo Nagura stone) which I have purchase online but I am not sure if the seller send the wrong item. Please help verify if the grey stone is Karasu. By the way, on the side there is a huge crack and there is some glue like substance. Does anyone know if the stone will just crack into half overtime? Iyo Nagura stone seems good to me but I just take it's photo just to show you guys.

PLEASE HELP!!!

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to SRP. In due time Old_School, JimR or one of our other members who know these stones and read and write Japanese will be along to help you out. In the meanwhile here is the SRP Wiki where you will find the beginner's guide and much more. Also here is a thread on the topic of Japanese natural stones that may help you out. :gl:

Karasu has spots from what I have seen in pics here on the forum.

Well, it looks like you got a couple of beauties from 330mate.com.

The grey one has some spots that look vaguely Karasu-ish, is all I can tell you. Someone with more experience will have to tell you more, but please remember, from all the resources I've seen, Karasu just means that it looks like it has black feathery spots (karasu means crow in Japanese)--it has no reflection on quality, fineness, etc. They're expensive because they're cool looking, that's it.

As for the glue stuff on the side, I have no idea. It could be Japanese lacquer (urushi) or just glue. Whatever the reason, it certainly looks like it's there to hold the stone together...

Good luck with it...

@JimmyHAD
Thanks for the link

@mainaman
Thats what I thought and wish to clarify.

@JimR
How did you know I get from 330mate? ._.
Btw this is Daniel, the one who did some enquiry with you on your strops.
Thanks for your previous advise.
Sorry, I couldn't afford your strop at the moment.

@OLD_SCHOOL
I am not very sure of its origin but I was quoted Yamshiro Karasu. Is it good?
Is it Iyo stone or the grey stone that require lapping before honing? Both?

Thanks all for your reply

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I was referring to the gray one, those white spots look like some type of pitting in the stone, but only you can tell for sure since you have the hones. Pictures can only tell a person so much.

The Iyo one, I can't tell if it's just the pattern or if it too has a lot of pitting. I can however see a number of possible cracks, or severe layer separation. Either of which could cause significant damage to your edges.

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I see...even though the stone is just before my eyes, I still can't tell if it a pattern or not but the white spot on both grey & Iyo stone is feel smooth when I move my finger around it. But I can feel the center crack line, will the crack line affect the honing?

If you bought it on ebay the only two sellers I see that sell J-nats offer an exchange with the buyer paying shipping. I haven't delved into these stones yet but I follow threads on them with interest.

I've read at least one member say that 330mate will work with you and send a better stone if you offer more $. I would tell the seller, whoever it is, that I want to exchange for a hone that is in better condition and appropriate for honing razors. :gl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If you bought it on ebay the only two sellers I see that sell J-nats offer an exchange with the buyer paying shipping. I haven't delved into these stones yet but I follow threads on them with interest.

I've read at least one member say that 330mate will work with you and send a better stone if you offer more $. I would tell the seller, whoever it is, that I want to exchange for a hone that is in better condition and appropriate for honing razors. :gl:

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I see...I did pay pretty good money for it though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Yes, if you can feel the crack and it's in the center of the honing surface, there is a good chance you will damage your edges.

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Signz...think i need to get it change. What do you think about the grey stone?

Maplelite - I think all the hones are likely to need lapping. If you are considering returning it, I wouldn't do anything to the hone until you settle with the seller. If you lap it, it is yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Karasu from the Nakayama quarry is actually high priced because of it's rarity. Karasu is said to come from the deepest parts of the mountain. Though with the more figuring in Karasu, the more the price goes up, same with size.

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This is not what I had been thinking. On So's write up on Naori layers he says:

Quote:

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There are total of 80 stratum in this naori, and the detail is as below.
Aka-pin
Tenjyou suita (uchigumori, nagagumori, sotogumori, shiro) x4
Hachimai x8
Senmai x2
Tomae x48
Aisa x4 (Karasu is sometimes found in this strata)
Namito x8
Hon suita x6
Shiro suita x2

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these are listed from deepest to shallowest in the Hon-Kuchi Naori.

One of the complaints he (So) voiced to me is that Karasu are often too soft and sometimes too scratchy for razors. The Karasu I have has some "su" so I am guessing it is from the transition from Honsuita to Namito. Honing on it has a soft buttery feel unlike the Nakayama I have from you (which feels hard). My Karasu is from Ozuku. I am using it for medium finish before my Nakayama. I have been told that Karasu are faster cutters. The one I have seems to go along with that.

I don't know what you paid nor can I tell what size your stones are; and if you should decide to return it that is up to you.

You say you paid "pretty good money". This is a relative statement; compared to what?

I have had one stone break and that is a bummer. It was about 1/2 inch think and showed to cracks. That tells me ultimately you never know what a rock may decide to do.

As well, because of some ugly looking issue you are being told how bad the stone is. That it surely is not this or even that; even though from a picture we can tell you very little.

I can guess the stone will be a hard one, it is from Kyoto, and little else.

If it were mine. first I would try it out, then get some of that thin CA glue and let it soak in the crack on the side. Then I would cut the stone down to remove the rough on the left side. I tried to salvage an aoto that had multiple cracks by resawing it and it did not work very well. I have also cut up a shinden suita to get a non-toxic surface- which did work and in all made 4 hones from a single piece. 1 good, 2 that are good enough and one that is still scratchy.(they are small which is what I wanted.

Unless you have other awasedo to compare it to, you may not be able to tell if it is good or not. (i am always puzzled when a member describes his first jp nat as an awesome stone after a cursory use. How does he know it's not just run-of the mill?)

@OLD_SCHOOL
I see...really appreciate your help, thank you.

@Pyment
I did not do anything to the stone until I get a reply from the seller which he quoted :
"This is Phantom karasu and Namazu.
Namazu = white point
Namazu is the evidence of the best Tenjyoh suita layers."
I dont know how true, can anyone confirm this?
Anyway, I have already try to rub both stone against each other to remove the center scratch when I decided to keep them but I failed.
I guess stone don't wear out so fast and this doest not feel like a soft stone.
After lapping, I realise that the pink small dot which is not so obvious at first became more reddish and cover most part of the stone that looks like blossom.

@kevint
This stone is about 7-8cm X 13-14cm X 4cm razor size, paid twice the amount stated in ebay listing. Maybe this is peanuts to some, I don't know really.
I have no experience in cutting or lapping stone, can I use sand belt to smoothen the crack? Please advise.
By the way, what is awasedo?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

By the way, what is awasedo?

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it denotes that the stone is finishing stone. It is also an abbreviation which I can't find right now.

it's very very hard to tell a good Karasu from a photo alone. They're all pretty, but not all hone the same.

I have several Japanese naturals with Karasu figuring, because I'm a sucker for it and I think it's very pretty. But only two of them are Nakayama Karasu. They were a lot more expensive (4X+), and a lot better. Both the true Nakayama Karasu came from OLD_SCHOOL, and both the non-Nakayama mined Karasu-figured stone came indirectly from another seller, who originally purchased from 330Mate.

The non-Nakamaya Karasu are both very pretty (I think), and are actually serviceable hones that i don't regret buying, for their price. I would put them in the neighborhood of a low-end Coticule in terms of grit, and they are priced similarly. They have the nice "Karasu tug" feel when honing.

But they are much softer than the Nakayamas. Also:
- They show a noticeable difference (darkening) in color when wet, the Nakayamas do not.
- They have little to no red "skin" on them, especially their reverse side. The Nakayamas seem to have very extravagant red skin. This may not be unique to Nakayama, but just associated with higher-end stones.
- And the Nakayama Karasu are really, really hard, which can't be "felt" from a photo. A trusted seller who is knowledgeable about both Japanese stones and razors is needed to give a true evaluation for how a stone will work with razors.

Here is a set of 4 photos showing the surface and backside of two Japanese naturals with Karasu figuring, but are not Nakayama Karasu. The second stone may actually be Uchigumori rather than Karasu. I'll show photos of the two Nakayama Karasu I have in the next post:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...asuMaybe02.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...asuMaybe03.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...higumori01.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...higumori05.jpg

These next two are Nakayama Karasu. The figure is very similar to those above, looking at photos alone. But when honing in hand, the differences are very noticeable. Both are very hard, and very fine, great finishers. The thin 3 X 5" one is much slower than the much thicker 1.5 X 7" one, but both are great stones. The rear and sides of the thin stone came lacquered with Urushi by OLD_SCHOOL, the thicker stone is un-laquered. The thin one is an Asagi with Karasu figure, the thick one is Kiita with Karasu figure.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...Karasu2-01.jpg


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...Karasu2-02.jpg


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2.../KarasuDry.jpg


http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j2...KarasuBase.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

@OLD_SCHOOL
I see...really appreciate your help, thank you.

@Pyment
I did not do anything to the stone until I get a reply from the seller which he quoted :
"This is Phantom karasu and Namazu.
Namazu = white point
Namazu is the evidence of the best Tenjyoh suita layers."
I dont know how true, can anyone confirm this?
Anyway, I have already try to rub both stone against each other to remove the center scratch when I decided to keep them but I failed.
I guess stone don't wear out so fast and this doest not feel like a soft stone.
After lapping, I realise that the pink small dot which is not so obvious at first became more reddish and cover most part of the stone that looks like blossom.

@kevint
This stone is about 7-8cm X 13-14cm X 4cm razor size, paid twice the amount stated in ebay listing. Maybe this is peanuts to some, I don't know really.
I have no experience in cutting or lapping stone, can I use sand belt to smoothen the crack? Please advise.
By the way, what is awasedo?

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I am not one who can afford to throw money away either. What I am saying is if you look at the part that is usable maybe it wont be so bad, not that you have to or even should do what I would. I would not just cut it up- i did not mean to come across that way. all the pieces I have cut, i thought long and hard about and used enough to at least think that I knew what was best.

The side view looks sealed so at least some attempt has been made, as not all the stones from 330 are sealed. The ones that are, at least are worth some special attention. Not to overstate things not a big effort but some. Considering that you paid double; it is fair to expect that the performance and utility of the sweeter portion be satisfying-it should work as described in a very good way.
It would not hurt to seal/ fill it better should you keep it.
worth reading: Japanese Woodworking Forums • View topic - Natural Sharpening Stone Breakage

Japanese Woodworking Forums • View topic - Natural stone Mystery

How did you decide upon this one from all others?

Interesting, I was browsing So's page and saw a Shobudani Karaso stone that was not spotted it just has a few dark streaks.

@mainaman
Thanks for translating

@BigboySlim
Thanks you for taking the trouble and time to post your stone for a noob like me to see.
Your Green Nakayama Karasu looks especially attractive to me.

@kevint
I see...maybe I will use the stone for a while before deciding whether I want to correct the stone. What do you mean by "How did you decide upoon this one from all others"?
If you mean why I choose karasu over the others, the reason is because I read up somewhere that say Karasu is a hard stone good for finishing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Interesting, I was browsing So's page and saw a Shobudani Karaso stone that was not spotted it just has a few dark streaks.

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Can you paste the link?
I don't know where to find the page. Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

Can you paste the link?
I don't know where to find the page. Thanks

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I can't link the page, they al have the same web address ,
I will just link the pic source.
http://www.japan-tool.com/toishi/ten...ani_Tomae1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

I am not one who can afford to throw money away either. What I am saying is if you look at the part that is usable maybe it wont be so bad, not that you have to or even should do what I would. I would not just cut it up- i did not mean to come across that way. all the pieces I have cut, i thought long and hard about and used enough to at least think that I knew what was best.

The side view looks sealed so at least some attempt has been made, as not all the stones from 330 are sealed. The ones that are, at least are worth some special attention. Not to overstate things not a big effort but some. Considering that you paid double; it is fair to expect that the performance and utility of the sweeter portion be satisfying-it should work as described in a very good way.
It would not hurt to seal/ fill it better should you keep it.
worth reading: Japanese Woodworking Forums • View topic - Natural Sharpening Stone Breakage

Japanese Woodworking Forums • View topic - Natural stone Mystery

How did you decide upon this one from all others?

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There is a lot of info in the "natural stone mystery" thread. I have read it a number of times.

Interesting observation on the sealed edge. It seems that 330mate has a bunch of second hand stones recently. I wonder if he has bought out someone's estate and the sealed stones are from there.

Looking at the side view, one can tell that the Karasu goes all the way through.

I have try out both stone last night and here is what I feel about them :

Grey Stone(Karasu) - Tried my straight razor on it and did made my razor sharper but I am unable to get mirror finish(can show some reflection but cloudy & blurry), should I continue to hone til it's mirror? The stone feel very smooth and hard when honing(I have no other stone to compare so this comment is rather useless). Just realize the base is lacquered as well. By the way, what is A.Q lacquer? Anyone know?

Iyo Stone - I tried using it to hone a scissors(a long one) which my grandfather gave me and the crack got worst. The crack became longer and slightly deeper. How come I salvage this piece before it get deeper and crack into half? Please advise.

Thank you all for your help.

The hazy finish may just be the finish the stone is capable of, some will go to mirror some will only go to hazy if I understand right. I think it is a function of the grit, since 330mate lists grits 1-3, 2= hazy and 3=mirrored.

As far as the crack in th lyo, the woodworking forum link in an earlier post talks about some of them using certain glues(cant remember which) and one used just urushi(japanese laquer). I have also read that some use rice paper and urushi around the outside to keep the crack from growing, kind of an added binder.

I am just beginning all this, so hopefully I am not giving wrong info, please take my post with a grain of salt and double check me.

Is there a way to flatten the crack instead of glue and lacquer?

I am sure you could lap it flat but if you dont stabilize the stone I would think the crack will just keep growing. You might epoxy it to a piece of hardwood to make sure the stone sits flat and secure so when using it it wont put pressure on the crack then lap it and you might get lucky, of course you would still want to laquer the wood so that while honing it doesnt absorb water and expand and rip your stone in half, although that would probably take a lot of water. Sorry I cant be of more help but like I said before I am just beginning this journey.

on the iyo; what does the other side look like? I find mine to be the same essentially on all sides. Maybe you can lap the other side

Try some thin CA in the crack regardless

i'm the furthest thing from an expert on japanese hones, but here's what i think based on what i consider a common sense

you made a mistake.

if you don't have the money to throw away you should not gamble on stuff that you have no idea how it will turn out. i always think that the best way to save money is to pay the extra for the expertise and ensure you are getting what you want.

from your posts it seems that you bid double the ebay seller's opening bid. i recently read a thread where he and his hones were discussed at length and it seems that his opening ebay bids are just the price he wants for that hone without providing any additional tests or guarantees. if you want these extras you have to pay extra and he will take the time to find a hone that matches what you want. but you have to contact him and arrange that. if you just win a hone from him on ebay you are not getting any of these additional services he is willing to provide, regardless of how much you pay.

the hone may be excellent, but i'd be betting that this is less likely than more (given that the seller actually deals in these in bulk and the stuff he thinks is top choice he sets aside, tests and lists for much more money on his website).

so, you just took a big gamble and more likely than not you overpaid for a hone by a factor of two.

I realize that's not something that's going to make you feel good, but that's my honest analysis and I hope that it may be useful to you and anybody else who reads this thread for any future purchasing decisions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

I am sure you could lap it flat but if you dont stabilize the stone I would think the crack will just keep growing. You might epoxy it to a piece of hardwood to make sure the stone sits flat and secure so when using it it wont put pressure on the crack then lap it and you might get lucky, of course you would still want to laquer the wood so that while honing it doesnt absorb water and expand and rip your stone in half, although that would probably take a lot of water. Sorry I cant be of more help but like I said before I am just beginning this journey.

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I don't really get it, what wood? I just place a piece of tower underneath the whetstone when honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

on the iyo; what does the other side look like? I find mine to be the same essentially on all sides. Maybe you can lap the other side

Try some thin CA in the crack regardless

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The other side of the stone look much better without any crack but smaller honing area plus the end of 2 side look like the base of my karasu.
What is CA? Can I just use any lacquer to fix the crack?
I will try to post some pictures later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gugi

i'm the furthest thing from an expert on japanese hones, but here's what i think based on what i consider a common sense

you made a mistake.

if you don't have the money to throw away you should not gamble on stuff that you have no idea how it will turn out. i always think that the best way to save money is to pay the extra for the expertise and ensure you are getting what you want.

from your posts it seems that you bid double the ebay seller's opening bid. i recently read a thread where he and his hones were discussed at length and it seems that his opening ebay bids are just the price he wants for that hone without providing any additional tests or guarantees. if you want these extras you have to pay extra and he will take the time to find a hone that matches what you want. but you have to contact him and arrange that. if you just win a hone from him on ebay you are not getting any of these additional services he is willing to provide, regardless of how much you pay.

the hone may be excellent, but i'd be betting that this is less likely than more (given that the seller actually deals in these in bulk and the stuff he thinks is top choice he sets aside, tests and lists for much more money on his website).

so, you just took a big gamble and more likely than not you overpaid for a hone by a factor of two.

I realize that's not something that's going to make you feel good, but that's my honest analysis and I hope that it may be useful to you and anybody else who reads this thread for any future purchasing decisions.

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I spend the trouble creating this account and thread because I want to verify whether or not did I get the right product which I paid for.How did money and gamble came into place?

First of all, I did not place a bid on his ebay's whetstone because the stone I want is not there in the first place. I did contact him and ask for a quote razor size Karasu & Iyo plate. However, I did not know Karasu has so many grade even though they have the same name and yes, somehow I did not know what I had paid for in some way. Luckily, the karasu is doing its job just fine and I am pretty happy(just some fear that the huge crack will cause it to break into 2). So the problem has reduce to only the razor size Iyo stone as you can see I am asking for advise.

I do agree on your analysis but I think you make a mistake here.
Not trying to start any flaming war, please do not feel offended in anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

I don't really get it, what wood? I just place a piece of tower underneath the whetstone when honing.

The other side of the stone look much better without any crack but smaller honing area plus the end of 2 side look like the base of my karasu.
What is CA? Can I just use any lacquer to fix the crack?
I will try to post some pictures later.

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CA= super glue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

I don't really get it, what wood? I just place a piece of tower underneath the whetstone when honing.

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Well it doesnt sound like your towel is too stable if the crack is growing. Even though it feels stable on the towel the crack is still growing which means the stone is flexing a little. If you permenantly glue the stone to a piece of wood the stone will not be able to flex and the crack should quit growing, that is as long as the wood doesnt expand or contract. It may be easier if the stone would just completely break in half,as long as it is a clean break, that way it would be very easy to get the glue or laquer into every facet of the crack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

First of all, I did not place a bid on his ebay's whetstone because the stone I want is not there in the first place. I did contact him and ask for a quote razor size Karasu & Iyo plate.

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OK, my mistake, I thought you did.
Buying something you don't know much about without trust in the sellers knowledge and integrity, and/or having to rely on a third party to evaluate your purchase = gamble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maplelite

Not trying to start any flaming war, please do not feel offended in anyway.

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Good, because that would not be a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

CA= super glue

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Thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jasongreat

Well it doesnt sound like your towel is too stable if the crack is growing. Even though it feels stable on the towel the crack is still growing which means the stone is flexing a little. If you permenantly glue the stone to a piece of wood the stone will not be able to flex and the crack should quit growing, that is as long as the wood doesnt expand or contract. It may be easier if the stone would just completely break in half,as long as it is a clean break, that way it would be very easy to get the glue or laquer into every facet of the crack.

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I see...I will try out all the suggestion given.

Thank you guys for all your time and information.

I'm going to suggest you discuss this with the seller, as I have a several year history with him, and have been surprised and pleased with every stone so far, 5 if I remember correctly.

If there is a crack that is making the stone unusable, the sooner you tell him the sooner he can seek a replacement. I have bought a vintage Aoto from him after I'd purchased one elsewhere that was 'gritty' and borderline useable, and he delivered an UGLY old doorstop of an aoto that sharpens like a dream.

One thing to consider, the relative value of our currency vs yen has made prices in dollars go up 50% in the last 2 years. If you want quality, bring money.

My largest hone cost < $400 3 years ago, and I suspect over double that now, as it improved greatly after I received it. A thin layer flaked off the bottom and exposed a surface equal to the top side, which I lapped and now use regularly.

There aren't many Japanese hones useable on both main flat surfaces, and I've gotten 2 fully useable out of 5. I'm feeling guilty because my good fortune is so different from your experience. You can consider that every stone so far has been a keeper, not for sale, period, at any price. I very much hope you wind up with one that pleases you as much as mine please me.

Talk to him. I think he cares about stones a great deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mitchshrader

I'm going to suggest you discuss this with the seller, as I have a several year history with him, and have been surprised and pleased with every stone so far, 5 if I remember correctly.

If there is a crack that is making the stone unusable, the sooner you tell him the sooner he can seek a replacement. I have bought a vintage Aoto from him after I'd purchased one elsewhere that was 'gritty' and borderline useable, and he delivered an UGLY old doorstop of an aoto that sharpens like a dream.

One thing to consider, the relative value of our currency vs yen has made prices in dollars go up 50% in the last 2 years. If you want quality, bring money.

My largest hone cost < $400 3 years ago, and I suspect over double that now, as it improved greatly after I received it. A thin layer flaked off the bottom and exposed a surface equal to the top side, which I lapped and now use regularly.

There aren't many Japanese hones useable on both main flat surfaces, and I've gotten 2 fully useable out of 5. I'm feeling guilty because my good fortune is so different from your experience. You can consider that every stone so far has been a keeper, not for sale, period, at any price. I very much hope you wind up with one that pleases you as much as mine please me.

Talk to him. I think he cares about stones a great deal.

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I have already discuss with him before I start using the stone and he did give some advise on lapping the stone. I find that sending the stone back for exchange would be too much trouble plus the shipping will not be cheap as the stone is very heavy. Actually, the amount I paid is more than double on the ebay listing. When I double up the ebay listing price for a good Karasu, he quote that as "fool" which made me kinda angry :rant:

Now trying to lap the stone flat for usage. Karasu is not giving me any trouble other than the crack by the side which I kinda mind. Might sell this one off and buy another one with a flat 6 plane though.

Thanks for your suggestion anyway.

Gugi is right. The OP tried to get a bargain here and got taken advantage of instead. Shame on 330mate for selling a stone in this condition, and OP, you would know how shabby this stone is if you had more knowledge in this area.

If you haven't given up on the Jnats entirely, try buying from Alex Gilmore at Japan Blade or Old_School. Both are honorable gentlemen and will not take advantage of a relative newcomer.