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I need to buy a final polishing hone. Money NOT being an issue, which finishing stone should I buy? Coticule, Naniwa 12k, Shapton 16k? Thuringen? I don't want to go looking for collectible Eschers or impossible to get hones. Currently I am only using a Norton 4k/8k and Green paste on a strop. I don't know if my razors make a difference in the selection but I have a Livi/Takeda, a Livi Bergamo, Livi/regrind, 2 Filharmonicas, 2 Theirs, and 2 Dovos. All are in very good shape.
I would even consider a Japanese natural stone if someone could tell me which one is good. There are way too many available, but I have no clue on these
I can only speak for the Shapton 16k, but that really is a great stone! Smooth finishes, great feedback, consistent and reliable. You wont be disappointed!
http://stores.ebay.com/japanblades
Consider the ohira suita 75-145 usd.
#3 has some length to it. The others are on the short side of "best length for a razor hone" so I am not sure if that would be ideal as your first finish hone.
I would recommend one of the lower cost suita to someone who wanted to know what a nice japanese natural is like but would rather not invest in a full size hone.
Alex was kind enough to send me a couple stones to try, one of which is an ohira suita. Let me quote from his description:"I guarantee 110% money back that this is a true Ohira stone* and a money back guarantee that you will like it, no questions asked."
I have sharpened a couple razors with it, which is why I am suggesting to anyone with 75+ bucks who can use a short stone, to get one. It works like a charm, no wondering about whether it is working or doing anything. That is obvious and it's easy to use even being short because it cuts fast.
We have a member here who can help you. If money is not an issue, I'd go for the Japanese Natural. The member is Old School. He's know's his stuff. Check with him.
That, or an Escher are my two favorite finisher's.
Right. So you have number of extremely expensive razors, and you want to start experimenting. We need more people like you here, really, courageous and brave...Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
Thing is, you will be extremely hard pressed to find anyone in this forum who has used all the hones you mention (plus others that might potentially fit your bill), and is objective enough to pass an expert judgement. I think this sums it up nicely: "Before buying a hone of any type, we recommend that you go through the hones category of this Wiki, in which you will find various articles that should help you decide what your use of a particular hone will be. This should help you determine the right stone(s) for you. Everyone does not need a set of Shapton hones, or a Japanese natural hone. We also want to encourage you to read the threads in the hones and honing sections of the forum that ask "What hone should I buy?", keeping in mind that the vast majority of the members answering these questions are only recommending what they use themselves without being able to compare to alternatives. "
Bit like asking what the best razor is. There is no canonical answer. There isn't even a general consensus that finishing hones are needed at all.
And just for the record, a "Thüringer" hone can be anything from USD 15 stuff for honing cooking knives to ... well, whatever you want to call a water stone from Thüringen with which you can hone razors.
I guess to clear it up I want a hone for keeping my razor sharp. I don't let my razors get dull as it is. I'm just looking for a stone to use between my 8k and my strop/paste. I've got alot of razors so I don't have to sharpen that often anyway. I'm not going to restore a razor either. I will be using this finishing stone far more than my 4/8k so I would like to invest in a good one. And obviously I have expensive razors so I don't want to use a budget hone. So my real question is what is the most reliable currently commercially available finishing hone on the market today
Robin is dead on with the statement above...
Without even picking a hone I can tell you a few things from what you wrote...
You use a N4/8 right now and are shaving which tells me you can hone...
You need a finishing stone that still has a bit of bite, what I mean is a super slick finisher will not have enough cutting power to smooth out the 8k scratches and that is what adding stones is all about...
You basically can go in any direction you want to from the point you are at...the only thing you want to avoid it the super high jump...
An example would be going to a Shapton 30k and not the 16k, off the N8k you would need that step, hope that made sense...(that is not just limited to the Shapton line)
This is still very subjective. This is going to be pure opinion and could be dead wrong. But if you are just going to use paste at the end no matter what, get a synthetic fiisher....
Synthetic:
Naniwa 12k or shapton 16k
Natural:
oh man soo many. i will probably miss some.
Japanese Naturals
Coticule
Escher
Thurigen(sp?)
Charnley Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
I guess for synthetic would be 12k Naniwa Super Stone, Shapton Glass 16k or 30k. Then if you want to go into naturals, a high quality Nakayama. I have not used other naturals so I can't comment on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
Since money's no issue for you check out Japanblade
Alex is very informative with regards to Japanese naturals. Very passionate and a nice gentleman to boot.
He also goes by the handle Alx.
Check this thread by OLD_SCHOOL
These are European razors. So they should be honed on a European hone. Preferably an Escher. Or a nice Coticule/BBW natural combination stone. One of the fastest ways to burn money in any event.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiRed8
I am not sure if you are being serious or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBerlin
Will you rid yourself of non-european synthetics?
Or why not close the borders further; only german hones on german razors
Absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
I went from a Shapton 8K to a Shapton 16K just recently. I'm very happy.
Not tried the other "finishing" stones. And don't know if my experience would directly translate into a Norton 8K to Shapton 16K situation.
I know the Shapton 16K cuts plenty fast. First time I used it I made some passes, tested..."NICE!!!!!!!!!" Made a few more passes, tested..."Ugghh?" So dropped back down to the 8K, and then up to the 16K and as soon as I had "NICE!!!!!" again I called it good.
My experience in "finishing" stones is limited solely to Shaptons though, so YMMV
The rarest most expensive one! ;)
Seriously... for availability/bang for the buck I'll continue praising the "Chinese 12k" (about 1 micron) forever, in this sea of expensive "exotic" finishers. It's tough to beat... 20-30$ and quite versatile but can be kind of slow if you don't use it with slurry.
Else, I'd consider the naniwa 12k (~8x3" / 72$) or Shapton 16k (~8x3",95$) if you prefer bigger stones.
It seems like you're only really looking to get your razors sharp and enjoy a nice shave so I wouldn't really recommend the Japanese naturals to get like... 0.000000112% more smoothness out of them...
I do not think that is true. I have Asagi that is fine enough to skip the CrO strop, the edge off it is just amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
I think I've narrowed it to Naniwa 12k, Belgian Coticule, or maybe the Thuringen Timber Tools sells. Any thoughts? I wouldn't mind spending $1200 on a Japanese stone if it was definately the perfect stone, but I don't want to experiment with a $1200 stone that might not be what I want.
Any votes?
So at japantool is the person to talk to about Japanese finishers, he has thousands of stones and will find you a nice razor finisher that will be guaranteed (and can be returned if not what you want) to work. Give him your price range and he will find you a stone. You will be surprised that you can find a great stone for considerably less than 1200.Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
Please, there is a very obvious, very easy answer to all of this, and a number of people have hinted around it. Here it is -- ASK ALEX GILMORE OF THE JAPAN BLADE. Alex is a dealer in Japanese natural stones. He sells some less expensive stones on eBay, but the best of his selection are only available through his store. His prices are NOT the lowest out there, but what he offers in return is, to me, infinitely more valuable -- you can actually TRY OUT A FEW STONES and PICK THE ONE YOU LIKE.
I don't know of anyone else dealing stones who is willing to take this kind of time to help you. And for the record, I bought a fantastic stone from him, which gives me a killer edge and is a pleasure to use. It was definitely expensive (around $400), but I felt that it was money well spent because it was a stone that I got to try out and experiment with before buying.
By the way, I also have a really nice Belgian combo coticule, and I don't think the coticule and the Japanese stone really compare. The coticule is very, very fine and gives a great polish, but to my inexperienced eye, it looks like the coticule removes a LOT of metal compared to the Japanese stone. The Japanese stone really takes away very little metal with each stroke and leaves your razor super scary sharp. I don't think there's anything like it in the sharpening world.
Anyway, you get the drift. Call Alex, and tell him that I (and others) recommended him. He's the guy you want.
That would make it similar to my "C12k", no need for CrO with that one. :P I'm not against Jnats, I'm sure they do a stellar job, but probably not 300-2000% (or even 10000%) better than a C12k...Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Jnats look like infinite fun for people really into honing, experimentation and tradition... at the end of the day a smooth edge is a smooth edge and If I can make it with more $$ in my pockets for soaps, creams and razors, that's even better, IMO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP sounded like he just wanted a good and easy to find & use tool without regard to price (if well justified). I'd have a serious look at a Shapton 30k in that case. (But then 30k will probably be the same as CrO... for 300$ more - 16k would be the better deal and better after a N4k/8k)
if you understand what are you talking about then good luck to You.Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
Hats off to you sir! This is THE most specific request for hone related advice I have ever seen on these forums. Usually people ask for more info on required use, other hones etc. You have made it easy for someone to help you.Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
From all of my reading around the forum and distilling the advice of many esteemed members deliverd in simailar threads, I believe there are 2 hones that fit the bill.
The Shapton 16k and the Naniwa 12k. Take your pick.
Personally I have neither of these hones, so hopefully someone more experienced will confirm or refute my recommendation.
You need to try a good Japanese finisher to understand the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
I bet there are even finer ones than what I have.
When I talked to So about grit comparison with Shapton 30k , he said that a good Nakayama is finer than that.
As far as the funds, the OP postulated that if money was not an object, what would be a good finishing stone. A quality Jnat finisher can be purchased for a very reasonable amount, the very expensive ones are just very symmetric and big, may be the bigger chunk of the price is based on weight/size
Tell me more, please! What's unclear? A smooth edge is not just a smooth edge? I'm just saying...Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
Thanks for taking the time to give me more info. I'm definitely interested by Jnats and I'm certain that the honing gods cherish them and they have thousands of years of history BUT do you think there's any truth to my statement that for a lesser price you get similar quality and a 8x3 stone that's reliable - same grit throughout (as asked by the OP)... i mean, is there a highly discernable difference between a Shapton 16k or 30k with a Jnat of similar price (but dissimilar size...). I'm just saying...Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Yea, just saying. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
No I do not
I have had only 16k Shapton, and yes there is huge difference.
As far as 30k Shapton I have not tried it, the person that I talked to deals with stones long enough to know what a natural stone can do and what a synthetic stone can do. I trusted his judgment and got a great stone.
You and anyone else can get w/e stone they want, the question was about advise, and I think advice has been given. The personal choice is left to the individual to make.
1+... Me too.... I just completed the purchase of a stone from Alex a couple of weeks ago. He spent a great deal of time with me on the phone and wanted to know exactly what I was looking for. He hand picked some stones and I sent him a deposit. He sent me 4 stones to try and I spent several weeks deciding exactly what was best for me. When I was done, I sent the stones back and he refunded my balance of the deposit. Was a truly enjoyable transaction and perfect customer service. I ended up buying this stone.....Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
SUITA_207
I haven't had enough time to spend with it yet but it won't be a stone I will outgrow and should last my lifetime. I also won't have to spend twice that on 5 other stones looking for what I want and still not find it..... Better to get the best and not regret it.
Just my thoughts and experience.....
Barry
Well..., you sparked a discussion by saying my advice was wrong. Anyway. I'll leave it at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
The the OP: Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Edges
I own an 8x3 combination coticule, and a Japanese stone that's named 'My Precious' which was done in all seriousness.
They are both elegantly wonderful and not for sale. I wouldn't know how to assure you of such quality, I spent money and got lucky both. Twice.
My best source is currently out and waiting hopefully, on the large belgians, but medium sized may exist. On reliability and speed, a combo belgian isn't arguable, much more likely to be pleased than with the same dollar number spent on japanese.
unfortunately with the strength of the yen, stones aren't cheap one bit, in dollars. Almost 50% increase in a few years on currency rates alone. So a fine japanese hone must wait on the magic intersection of luck and money, hurrying not useful.
Get the best belgian you can find. The Japanese stone, plan on chasing very Gently.
Ok, even though I asked about readily commercially available stones, the information I got back from Alex at thejapanblade.com was unbelievably detailed. I was getting little information about other stones from retailers. I understand that natural stones are always a risk, but for the price the stone is worth the risk. If anyone is looking for a Japanese natural hone, Alex is your guy. When I get the stone I'll post a review. Thanks to everyone for the advice.
I'm somewhat new to the straight-razor world...not new to maintaining edged tools, but, admittedly, razors are a big step above chisels and knives, however, with the reading I've done here and finding that people developed good shaving edges with 1000/bevel, 4000/8000 combo stones, then paste/strop of choice and finish with a clean strop...I have this step up and after reading, additionally purchased a 12000, just because I enjoy this type of thing, am new and trying to get a great edge, (reasonably).
Once again, I'm nobody here, with an opinion worth little if anything about the world of honing, but, I pause a bit at the numbers like 30000 for a finish hone, especially when you hear that others like the .5 micron paste, but, that .25 over develops the edge...then again, others swear by it. I realize that much of this is subjective...personal preference, (5/8 versius 6/8...hollow/half-hollow/wedge, etc)...but...sometimes an ignorant new guy who knows little can't help but get the impression that the focus changes from a shaving instrument and what it takes to get a great shaver, to the tools and yet another wonder product, (admittedly a male trait that I am so damn gulity of myself). So, do we wait for a 100,000 hone to come out.
I'm probably wrong but all those posts and videos of great edges obtained off an 8000 and a couple of strops...12000 was better...16000...now 30000...I mean, does it stop somewhere?:shrug:
________________
Scott
I understand your point of view, and admittedly, I have been shaving off of an 8k and Crox for 6 years now without complaint. I also can't really say a Japanese natural is better yet, but my reasoning is that Japanese tradesman have been sharpening tools with these high grit stones for 1000 years, so there must be something behind the high grit stones. I have 9 different razors from a 150 year span and can definately tell the difference in types of steel. So to me its worth it to try a high end Japanese natural out. I got a money back gauruntee anyway.
yes if it is possible , which I doubt, theQuote:
Originally Posted by hardblues
HADs here will buy it.
I guess when you think about it part of the enjoyment of SRS is all the stuff that goes along with it and the processes...a guy can't have too many razors, (knives, tools, fly-rods, guitars), and there isn't a woman alive who has too many shoes!
__________________
There's more art in the price tag of japanese stones. Buying european stones, other than from collectors, curse them all! :soapbox:, is a bit more like buying sausages.
Be aware you can occasionally find a very good japanese stone severely underpriced for ugly. I mentioned getting lucky and that was one of the times.
The 'kosher' coticules are theoretically visually perfect, but whether that translates into finer polish is arguable. It's reasonable to assume the smallest microgarnets produce the best polish, and that size varies.. but to know without personally testing each stone seems impossible. That's why I doubt any claim that one or the other (euro or japanese) is 'best'. Between two specific stones that is determinable, but it falls apart talking about any OTHER two stones. You can know the answer for sure, specifically, but it doesn't extrapolate.
I finally got my Japanese Suita stone and it was definatley worth the price. While I can't compare it to a man made 30,000k, I can say that I have had a stainless steel Dovo for 6 years that I have never liked. It never gave me a comfortable shave, even when it was sent to me fresh from professional honing. This morning it was as comfortable as my $1200 Mastro Livi. I guess if you do your homework and buy from a reputable source, a Japanese Natural is definately worth it and not a risk at all.
Well put. In my non-regretted razor-related purchases, buying from a reputable source I trust has been the most predictable factor in my final happiness, by a long shot. For my Japanese stones, I'd multiply that factor by 100. The seller is everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by joes978
Asagi & C12K, similar ?Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
Similar in colour maybe & there the similarity ends :)