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Just starting to hone and I see a lot of info about the norton 4k/8k and then finishing stones like the 12k or the 16k and also the pastes. I have the norton and I have read about people using just that.
My basic questions is
Are the 12k and higher stones necessary for finishing the blade and getting a good smooth shave?
I have read a lot about the stones and searched the forums, but I cannot seem to find a clear cut answer to that question. perhaps I am missing the correct thread.
If 8K is all you can have for now, then it is OK. Higher grits are mostly considered a luxury, and often equates to personal taste. 8K and a linen/combo strap can still produce a fine shaving edge. However... It would not hurt to throw in some Cr0x before stropping... :D
Exactly. Higher grit stones are definitely nice to have, but the Norton followed by a little crox stropping should do just fine in the meantime.
Yes, you can shave off a Norton 8k, and I recommend to new guys who have the Norton 4k/8k not to bother getting any finer hones until they can get at least pretty good shaves off the Norton 8k - if you are not getting a good edge there then finer hones will not help. Shaving off the 8k is a great way to test out how good your honing is.
Yes, an 8K is enough.
The 8K and a good strop are all you really need. They are in fact all I generally use even though I do have both finer stones and pasted strops at my disposal.
If you want cheap alternative to a finisher get the Chinese natural at Woodcraft for $20.
With Norton's I've been able to achieve great edges with them.
Picking up the 5/8k Super Naniwa to compare the two eventually.
+1! Going to a finisher or even the next finest hone before you get an optimum edge on the last hone only get you more practice on your strokes. I shaved off an 8k for quite a while. And yes, the Chinese Natural fro Wood Crafter is a good alternative for a finisher. It will also give you lots of practice on your strokes with a smoother shave as a result. It is not the most consistent home out there though and it will also give you lots of practice lapping as it takes quite a while to get it flat. It gives good results if you have a great edge to start with.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
+1 and I can get a good shave off of one to boot. I like to check out my honing by shaving at that level first and follow up on another day with a higher grit and see what that is like. Makes life interesting. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Thanks for all the input. This puts my mind at ease about having to go out and purchase another stone right away. I can work with what I have, knowing it will take care of me.
good post and comments it helped me with my question as well.. thanks all :)
If you want to get a little something to put some 'icing on the cake' at low cost chrom-ox on a piece of balsa, leather, canvas or felt is effective and cheap. ChrisL sells it in the classifieds here as a public service rather than a for profit venture.Quote:
Originally Posted by leot
You can pick up a piece of aircraft balsa at a hobby store for under $2.00 for a 36"x3"x1/8" piece. Glue that to a flat surface , I used Plexiglas, and you've got a finisher and touch up hone for under $10.00.
Yes, Dylan took the words right out of my mouth.
I think too many guys start buying all kinds of finishing hones thinking they will compensate for poor skills. Use the 8K and keep at it until you have extracted every bit of functionality out of that stone. Then you can move on or maybe you may be happy with that alone and wind up saving yourself alot of money.
You are exactly right! When I was a nooby honer, I thought I just HAD to have a nice, expensive finishing hone, having the delusion that it would make my razors shave better. Didn't happen!Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I learned what Dylan said, the hard way. You have to have an excellent edge by the time you reach the 8K stage of honing, otherwise you are just wasting your time and money with finishing hones. I think that should be put in the wiki...
You can get perfect shavs off a norton 8K. The 4K/8K (or equivalent) is all you need to start with if your razor has halfway decent bevels.
Also: if you can't get a decent shave off an 8K razor, then any money you spend on an expensive finishing hone is just a waste of money and stone.
In a similar vein, I say that pasted strops are a crutch if you are trying to learn to hone using stones.
When I started the first straight razor forum going on 10 years ago, there was virtually no information available like today with regard to almost any aspect of straight razor shaving. As one of the first people around to promote this sport, I was taught to hone by using the pyramid method with the Norton 4K/8K and for straight razors, that is what was known and available at the time. I used this stone for everything from repairs, to bevel setting to finishing for over 2 years and remembering back, the shaves were always very nice. The quest for the "Perfect" edge and most spectacular shave possible eventually drove me to the Coticule, Escher, Japanese Naturals, Synthetics up to 30K and the paste/spray media. The fundamentals developed with the 4K/8K, I feel, really helped in the progression with the circles that I later developed. The nice thing about the 8K is that if you are close, you can go back and dial in a razor using 3 to 5 strokes for a couple trips until it gets there.
There is much more information available today and a bunch more nice stones out there. Like with shaving, once you take the time to develop your technique with the basics, you will enjoy the results, not only quicker, but better.
The main tips that I can give you is to not obsess over one razor. Always assume the problem is you and not the razor. Be willing to take a step back and work on the razor tomorrow instead of investing hours on any given razor in a given day, thus really removing more metal than necessary. Less strokes are better (usually). Call one of us who have been doing this a while and ask for recommendations or help on problems. And most importantly, Have fun!
Lynn
Shucks. Here I was hoping to get myself appointed Deacon for a Small Fee and ushering hopefuls to the Altar of Grit in the House of Hone.
Looks like I need a new scheme. :boohoo:
:beer2:
Thanks lynn,
One of my concerns is that my main razor is the one you just honed, and when it comes to touching it up in a month or three i will only have the 8k. You make such great edges I hope that will not dull it. In the meantime I have several practice razors to perfect my technique before I have to touch the one you honed for me. The nice thing is that I can compare mine to yours. I am curious to find out if I will notice a difference because I believe you did finish mine with a higher grit. I will let you know
It can and does depend on you and your whiskers.Quote:
Originally Posted by leot
I am tempted to say for most people the Norton
8K is sufficient but I do not have the data points.
Here is a thought:
If you can tell the difference between
Feather Razor "Professional" Blades, and
Feather Razor "Professional Super" Blades
AND the Super matters to you then yes and perhaps more.
(yes I know most folk do not have a Feather for this comparison).
Each of us has different skin and whiskers so the
answer is a personal answer. i.e. no clear answer.
Perhaps more important is how you strop
and lather/ prepare for shaving.
Shaving off of an 8k stone is perfectly doable. That's what I used for a long time to hone my razors. I just recently got a Swaty to finish on and it does make a difference but not enough to go out and buy a new stone when you don't really have the money to. Also, keep in mind that I used to shave off of a 1k hone with what I consider descent results.
My brother came by today to do some one on one with lathering, stropping, and honing demonstration (he also got some goodies to take home :) )
We had the discussion about what kind of finishers are needed when he starts honing. Just for him to experience it, I honed 2 razors (1 on Shaptons up to 8k, and 1 on a Coticule), and he lathered up and test shaved both of them. He liked the Coticule edge better (obviously), but I kept asking him if he'd like me to finish the other razor on something finer than the 8K. His response was essentially, "this is sharp and smooth, do I really NEED anything else?"
I thought it demonstrated the point really well. He was very happy with both edges, and he wouldn't let me finish it (the one honed up to 8K )on the 16K or 30K... Yeah, it could be better, but he was able to get a great shave with it. He was happy, so I let him go with it :)
To answer yes you can. Me and Lynn were just talking about testing some hones and shaving off an 8K. But with the advance in technology the question would be why, If it is financial understood. But with all the methods out there to get a finer edge some very inexpensive ways and some very expensive why would you. I have tested some Iwasaki Kamisori 1- chou gake which are honed up to a Shapton 30k and let me tell you there is not a sharper edge out there. Now if I can just figure out how they do it lol