Escher or Thuringian?

So I bought this stone on eBay, and the seller represented that it was an Escher in his listing. When I posted a photo of it earlier, however, a few members pointed out that it was probably a vintage Thuringian but not an Escher because it clearly does not have that distinctive "Escher & Sohn" or "Escher & Co." label. That was a disappointment to say the least, and I let the seller know that I might be returning the hone based on his overly generous description of the item.

THEN, yet another member said, wait, hold on. It might in fact be an Escher -- but you need to look at the text of the label inside the lid of the box, because there were some Escher hones like this that have a pretty recognizable label but that were not marked with the Escher name.

Anyway, I KNOW that none of this has any effect on the quality of the stone, and I'm not asking these questions for that reason. The real issue here is that the price I paid for the stone might make sense if it actually is an Escher but probably not if it is not.

So, without further ado, here's the exact text of the label, as best I can read it, and with ellipses for what is completely obscured:

Top line "... enuine Water Hone"

Left side of label:

"With this ... known throughout the wo ... ount of its remarkably ... texture of grit, which imparts ... glasting fine edge to every blade."

Right side of label:

"Moisten the surface with w... and ... drawing the blade from heel to point against the edge across the stone, you will produce a fine ... which e...rgens the cutting pr...ies of the ...one.

Bottom line "Made in Germany"

The box has no other markings on it and does NOT say "Genuine Thuringian Hone" or anything else on the outside of the lid. The label is light brown in color, and the ink on it might have been a different color at some point but now looks like dark brown or reddish brown in color.

So what do you think? THANKS IN ADVANCE TO EVERYONE!

Here's two more pictures that came from the eBay listing. Thanks again for the help.

Like others have said, Escher & Co were just a company - they didn't make the stone, it occurs naturally and was distributed by a lot of other companies. It's a lot like people calling all vacuum cleaners "Hoovers" when Hoover was a maker of vacuum cleaner. "Escher" is used by some people in a generic sense to identify thuringian stones of a certain age. However, fair-play suggests that you only call it an Escher and sell it as such if it has the label, otherwise it is allowable to only call it Escher-like without trying to mislead people - your vendor (I have seen the listing) definitely called it an Escher so he should have something to back-up his claim with.

Yours looks like a good one - it may not say Escher, but Escher is only a name.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Yours looks like a good one - it may not say Escher, but Escher is only a name.

Regards,
Neil

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A rose by any other name ... is still a rose. :) It does look like a good one. E&Co, Escher, German Water Hone are all labels that have been seen and identified as being 'Eschers'. I have a Muller that is a kicka$$ hone and everyone looks down their nose at them because they came later and are still available. You have to lay a razor on there and get to know the hone. Probably be first rate.

Thank you very much for the advice, and I will take it to heart.

Just so you understand, what probably appears to be overweening concern about the label on my part is really just plain insecurity about whether or not I got ripped off by this seller. To put it simply, the guy got me to bid much larger than I would have because he called the thing an "Escher", and I've seen the prices of other authentic "Eschers" on eBay and felt like I was comfortable with the amount I bid. Then I find out it might not really be an Escher, but just a really nice vintage hone, and that makes me start to rethink what I paid, which maybe is not much to some people, but it's still a lot to me.

So bottom line -- I will give the hone a test run tonight and see if it's worth keeping, but in the meantime, your comments about whether or not this is an authentic Escher are good therapy for me. Thanks!!

I am sure it is a good hone either way, but if you paid extra for an Escher, you should get an Escher. The call is yours to make as to wether or not to accept the hone and if you decide to return it I couldn't blame you. If the seller lists it as an Escher it should be marked in an obvious fashion.

Kelly has a good point. OTOH, if you aren't happy with what you paid for the hone would you rather pay upwards of $250 for a good labeled Escher ? Then you have the issue of end labels and colors. If it doesn't have an end label you aren't totally sure whether you have a blue/green, yellow/green or light green. Dark blue is pretty easy to identify with or without the label.

Then if you're anal about this stuff as I am you will want to know which is the color to have. :gaah: So because you won't be able to get any conclusive opinions on which color Escher is best you'll have to have all of them. :banghead:

Also If it does have an end label along with the bottom label it will probably take more of your hard earned $ to bring it home. So sometimes you're better off with the devil you know than with the devil you don't know. Just something to consider. :)

Laughing my a$$ off at Jimmy's response. Yea, sometime it's good to let it go.

I probably would have given up a while ago too, but Dylandog kind of got me wound up yesterday about the text of the label. He said that he could identify the hidden Escher-nature of the hone by looking at the text. The thing is -- the text does match the text of a label that gugi posted on another thread, but gugi's has a little "E&Co." cup on it, and mine does not. I think I've exhausted the limits of this one for now.

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Originally Posted by JeffE

I probably would have given up a while ago too, but Dylandog kind of got me wound up yesterday about the text of the label. He said that he could identify the hidden Escher-nature of the hone by looking at the text. The thing is -- the text does match the text of a label that gugi posted on another thread, but gugi's has a little "E&Co." cup on it, and mine does not. I think I've exhausted the limits of this one for now.

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:roflmao

Sorry Jeff, my comment yesterday was maybe a bit misleading.... Let me explain: the fact that your text matches Gugi's E. & Co. hone, as well as the one I used to have, makes me think that yes, your hone was probably also boxed and sold by E. & Co. But this was sort of a stupid thing to tell you because who cares what I think. The only point at which any of this will make a difference is if you sell it, and in that case it's what Ebay bidders think that matters. Right now, what seems to matter to Ebay bidders is the magic word, "Escher." In a pinch, "E. & Co." in tiny print and the cup will do. I'm sorry you don't have either – :) – but I'll tell you this, you've got a damn fine finishing hone there, so enjoy!

So can I ask this without getting into too much trouble here? I have a chance to return this stone to the seller because of the misdescription that he used to sell it. I've asked the seller for an adjustment to the purchase price, but he says, no way, just send my stone back. I paid $167 for it, which is a LOT and even a little foolish for a stone that does not have the famed "Escher" label. Should I send the stone back and get my money or keep it? What would you do? You can assume that the stone works just great (which I will confirm tonight). So great stone, but no label and super-high price tag.

I would return it because of the 1" width. Not that you can't get use out of a narrow hone and for some applications it is desirable but nevertheless, I would send it back. Keep your eye out for a labeled Escher and go for the right one when it comes up. You may end up paying more or you may get lucky. My guess is you'll be second guessing yourself as long as you have that stone if you keep it. Just IMHO.

I can't in good faith recommend that you return it, because in my opinion the seller – notwithstanding his bad behavior – wasn't actually factually wrong here. Opinions will vary, but mine is that your Thuringian is an Escher. I'm attaching a picture of the label for a bona fide E & Co. dark blue thuringian. The label text is identical to yours, and when you use it to fill in the missing words from yours, you'll see that yours reads "The Genuine Water Hone with this trade mark is well known throughout the world" etc., exactly like the Escher brand one.

People demand different levels of "proof" that they've got a "real" Escher. Perhaps my standard of proof is lenient because I don't really care.:) But really, I don't see how a different company could get away with using exactly the same text as E. & Co., word for word, down to and including the self-reference to "this trade mark."

Note that though I think the seller was technically right, it was by a stroke of luck and not by any knowledge or care taken on his part; and I would have been more circumspect if I were listing this hone myself. I would have said "No brand name indicated, but label type and phrasing of company statement are consistent with that of E. & Co. hones," or something along those lines.

Not sure if the text is visible on these photographs, but I never considered them originating from Escher. To me if a company's name is not present that means there is no proof it came from that company.
A logo or company name is trademarked and cannot be used frivolously, and for some reason I doubt that a paragraph of text is covered by the same protection.
Then of course if we go nitpicking how do one know that a particular hone belongs to a particular box? Some of the ones I've had the hones were detached from the box, and even the ones that were still glued, I don't have any proof that that's the original glue.
The ones with labels on the stones are much more reliable as lifting a label off the stone looks like it'll be really hard. But we've seen auctions where the label was taped with a scotch tape to the stone and looked like it may even be a photocopy...

I'm just happy with my hones and actually the 1.5"x7" one that I've kept is not Escher, but some other company. I just think it's a cooler hone than the eschers.

You guys are great; I really appreciate it.

Actually I was just speaking with Bob Keyes today on the phone about all this, and he was telling me about how he just goes from 1k to 4k to 8k to leather strop. Nothing in between 8k and leather -- no pastes, no paddles, no finishing stones, and he gets the blades crazy sharp when he hones. So maybe the entire "finishing hone" thing is a waste of money, regardless of what hone you use?! Who knows.

Anyway, I'll try the hone out tonight and see if it's a keeper. Ivan, of course you're correct, because without even an E&Co. or some other kind of label stuck somewhere, you're never going to be in a position to claim this is an Escher (unlike my seller, that is!). Personally, I'd even be happy to live with that if it turns out that it's a great hone AND that I didn't completely get ripped off on the original price, as I'm still not really clear about whether the hone is worth the money I paid ($167) or only about half that amount (according to some, the price of a decent vintage Thuringian). But as Jimmy suggests, sometimes these questions are not given to firm or concrete answers.

Anyway, much obliged to all of you for the help, and again I am in your debt. --Jeff

I have a couple of the narrow vintage Thuringian and I think they are great for smiling blades. I have honed 8/8 W&B wedges with big smiles on one.

Jeff, I think you got a great hone, however you did not get an Escher.

You bet, you can hone a 12/8 razor on a 1/2 inch wide stone if you want to, but for some reason, the little bit wider stones seem to make the task so much easier and consistent, especially for guys learning to hone.

The older Thuringen stones if you can find them are very nice finishing stones.

Have fun,

Lynn

Lynn, Kees and others,

Thank you again for all of the help with this. I'm going to try to use the hone a little and see if I can make it work despite my lack of skills. (My mentor Bob Keyes thinks I'm actually dulling every razor that I "hone" -- which is depressing!)

Anyway, the narrow size is intimidating, but it seems like just about all of these old hones are either 1 or 1.5 inches OR they cost over $300 -- a good incentive to learn how to use a narrow hone.

So thanks again for the help with the identification, and I hope to repay all of the kindness shown here when I get a little closer to your level of knowledge! --Jeff

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Originally Posted by JeffE

You guys are great; I really appreciate it.

Actually I was just speaking with Bob Keyes today on the phone about all this, and he was telling me about how he just goes from 1k to 4k to 8k to leather strop. Nothing in between 8k and leather -- no pastes, no paddles, no finishing stones, and he gets the blades crazy sharp when he hones. So maybe the entire "finishing hone" thing is a waste of money, regardless of what hone you use?! Who knows.

Anyway, I'll try the hone out tonight and see if it's a keeper. Ivan, of course you're correct, because without even an E&Co. or some other kind of label stuck somewhere, you're never going to be in a position to claim this is an Escher (unlike my seller, that is!). Personally, I'd even be happy to live with that if it turns out that it's a great hone AND that I didn't completely get ripped off on the original price, as I'm still not really clear about whether the hone is worth the money I paid ($167) or only about half that amount (according to some, the price of a decent vintage Thuringian). But as Jimmy suggests, sometimes these questions are not given to firm or concrete answers.

Anyway, much obliged to all of you for the help, and again I am in your debt. --Jeff

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Thats strange bob keyes as always told me he finishes on 12k kitiyama. And he does use .5 and 0.25 paste. he recently told me he stopped using paste as he was getting complaints of harshness. I havehad several blades from bob and they are first class restores.

Maybe I misunderstood him! I agree that Bob does some of the best work around, and I've used him for all of my honing. When I asked him about my chromium oxide/balsa strop, he started telling me about how that just ends up dulling the edges over time and that he doesn't use anything like that. I then asked him what he uses after his 8k stone, and he said, "nothing -- just stropping." Anyway, I can't seem to get anything approaching a decent edge without some kind of finishing stone, so maybe the difference is in the skill of the person doing the sharpening.

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Originally Posted by JeffE

Maybe I misunderstood him! I agree that Bob does some of the best work around, and I've used him for all of my honing. When I asked him about my chromium oxide/balsa strop, he started telling me about how that just ends up dulling the edges over time and that he doesn't use anything like that. I then asked him what he uses after his 8k stone, and he said, "nothing -- just stropping." Anyway, I can't seem to get anything approaching a decent edge without some kind of finishing stone, so maybe the difference is in the skill of the person doing the sharpening.

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Back in the early days of SRP, when it was still the yahoo group, from what I understand, the norton 8k was the finishing stone. When I was beginning to learn to hone , still learning, Randy told me to test shave off of the 8k before moving up. If it ain't shaving good off the 8k higher grit honing is like putting choclate frosting on dog doo ..... if you'll pardon the analogy. :)

Bob keyes gets great edges of the nortons there 's no dout. Its true what jimmy says you have to be shave ready at the 8k level if your not your wasting your time using your coti or eschers thury etc. I for one newster think ah if i get a higher grit the razor will become better but it does'nt work like that. there is no reason why any one carn't shave of 8k if honed fully. Then if you use your thury you will apreciate the extra smoothness.

You can improve your 8K edge considerably by using chorm ox. pasted strop after honing and before stropping on plain leather.

thats very true i have done that with also dpaste. How are you escher uses using your eschers with or with out slurry. Some say water some say slurry?

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

thats very true i have done that with also dpaste. How are you escher uses using your eschers with or with out slurry. Some say water some say slurry?

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Y'know Gary, I believe that they put those instructions on the label for a reason. They tell you to make a 'lather' with the rubbing stone they included and I do. I then dilute as I progress just as with the coticule using Bart's method. I have also used them without slurry. You know how it is ..... you just do what 'feels' right depending on the blade and how you feel that day. Note that they say to lay the razor "pretty flat"..... I got a kick out of that. :)

I have about 20+ thuringian\escher\german waterstones and most of them came from antique\flea market sales. Tool sellers, knife sellers and antique stores are the best sources. Keep your eyes open!:)

For $160 I would send the hone back to the seller.