Does anyone have experience with or comments on this hone ?
砥石 畑中砥石株式会社｜京のこの逸品｜京の逸品 老 舗モール
http://www.shinise.ne.jp/highgrade/hatanaka/
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Does anyone have experience with or comments on this hone ?
砥石 畑中砥石株式会社｜京のこの逸品｜京の逸品 老 舗モール
http://www.shinise.ne.jp/highgrade/hatanaka/
Finishing stone is good quality, "or fast 研Geru" "I honed to sharp edge in how Yoshi Kiyoshi" "reduce the decline of the wheel, you can keep the plane" will be judged on three points. Meet this condition is to maximize the ability of the knife, "Motoyama if Masazumi Makoto wheel". In Kyoto, in natural stone finish that is produced only mine 礦山 Nakayama, Tenka Musou, and its quality has been praised since ancient times. Nakayama 礦山 mining origins, about a year ago now goes back to 800. Until the middle of the Kamakura and Muromachi period, was the purveyor of the shogunate and the wheel house 門外不出 as emperor. In the long history of the celebrated sword has also raised numerous polishing, wheel if Masazumi Makoto Motoyama. A razor blade when better-looking, tight-fitting like a familiar face and abrasive blade can scrub a knife to loosen up. Rapidly than any other stone finish is superb and precise cutting edges to form a clear-cut.
By the way i forget to mention very important factor
Price / 3,150,000 yen=
35,031.14 USD
This is really FUN
Bwahahahahah! That rock costs more than my car did! More than my wife makes in a year! Good lord, what could be so special about it?!?
Probably one of the very few superb stones that come form that particular mine?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimR
I believe this is one of the shops that deals directly with the (Hatanaka) family that owns the rights to the Nakayama mine. Buying from this shop guarantees that you will get a genuine new Nakayama hone from the Hatanaka family stock.
Whatever, the stone is ridiculously expensive and the stamps are different from the stamps on my Nakayama. Old_School once posted the stamps that you should be looking for when buying a Nakayama for Kamisori. I cannot find them on his site anymore.
Stamps can be forged, what you need to look for is to get a stone from a reputable seller. In Japan the skin on the back is a very important feature, people that have deal with stones for many years can tell you which mine the stone comes from just looking at the skin. There are fakes with dyed skin too. Certain stones that have what is considered the right color, which also indicates how fine the stone is, and are among the finest can be really expensive. The size adds to the price too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
The store in the photo is in Kyoto and is the outlet for the entire source of new Nakayama stones to the world. The owner is Hatanaka-san and any new stone on the market will come from him, and any old stone on the market came from either Hatanaka-san or his father or from Kato-san who retired in the late 1960s. The stamps on the stone in the photo are the current "boutique" marking used only by Hatanaka-san.
I do know that So and his dad have stones that would cost a fortune if they'd actually think of selling them, which they don't :)
Here is a link to a larger photo of the stones on the shelf. There is probably well over $1,000,000 sitting there. I handled a $75,000 stone myself. www.thejapanblade.com/images/hatanaka_toishi.jpg
Wow, walking distance from my mother-in-law's house! Next time I go to Japan I am certainly visiting the store.
One thing I do notice about all those stones is their clarity and lack of inclusions. Is that at least part of what your eye interperates? (For Alx or anyone else that has an eye for quality)
ohhh nice.
Maybe this is the stone that can cure HAD:).
It won't. It will only empty wallet and then you will be saving your pennies again for a future purchase.
Jeff
It is not really a store but more like an office showroom, you need to make an appointment and they screen casual calls plus no one speaks English. It helps if you are referred by a person known in the trade. A secretary will meet you but the owner Hatanaka-san is not usually in the office.
Mr. Hatanaka-san although very courtious does not like to chit chat about the stone market as it turns out. We talked more about business and politics more than stones. He is very guarded about the stone market and has a realistic handle on his position in the trade.
His father and Kato-san were partners in the ownership of the Nakayama mine, and when it was closed a final chapter was written. The mine had a supreme and continuous position for hundreds of years and were able, and continue now to set the prices they feel appropriate.
Because over the years their mine has supplied not only the household of the Emperor but also every major temple restoration with tennen toishi, and I would guess every tea house built, not to mention each and every woodworker even associated on the 2nd and 3rd tier of these undertakings or assiciations with Nakayama finishing stones. It is this past and deep history that compells the filial duty of Hatanaka-san to maintain a certain decorum. I have no reason to doubt that he lives in a modest manner. Kyoto has an elegance all its own.
The name Nakayama gets used so casually on e-bay and the internet in general, but in Japan, not so much so. The name is alluded to, yes. But the actual rights to the mine are not challanged. It is not easy to understand the way the mine system is set up in Japan, and I do not want to appear to really be fully in the know. There is no longer an entrance to the Nakayama mine that can entered and it is private property maintained by the family. They alone own the property rights and the rights to if they wish to open and mine it again, or sell any old stock as coming from that mine. There is not another entrance to the mine as someone has suggested, and no other stones from the Mt. Atago area can be marked as Nakayama stones.
Mt Atago is a big mountain and there may be other mines on the slopes of the mountain as rumored, and there are miners in the area who worked at the Nakayama mine many years ago. Also some of these miners may possess stone that came from the Nakayama mine that they bought or traded for, and it might be very good for sharpening. But by law this stone from the above mines or miners cannot be marked with the Nakayama ink stamps.
In a way stones from the Nakayama mine are really more than just stones, they are and were a product unique to the site, to the times and to the owners. The old stock stones and those held in reserve by the family are special and there are no replacements or subsitutes. There never were any other mines developed that had the same quality stones that this mine did. And I believe that the particular quality of stone from this pre-1960 era represented the end of what there was to be dug and that is why they closed the mine.
The stones that Hatanaka-san chooses to sell himself are the cream of the crop and I believe are sold on a client basis, not walk in traffic. The stones you see in the photos on the shelf are very even in grain, color and texture from front to back and side to side. They may also be from a particular strata or unique in some manner. Size does make a difference.
He does process other stone for wholesale to a select group of retailers. Here is a link to one “V‘R“u石‡“u‚”ƒ‚､‚ﾈ‚ ‘蜊H“ｹ‹専–“X(PROSHOPHOKUTO) As I said before he does not flood the market with stones and maintains a certain level of quality to protect the value of product sold previously. At a certain level it is not a stone business but a client based people business and many of his buyers are, I would suppose, sons of clients with ancient ties. This is all at a rarified level, there is no one above him or his company in the field. Alx
PS. for the yen to dollars converson, just remove two zeros from the prices in the above link. eg 150,000 yen = $1,500
OK - Everyone here send me $5000, I will group buy the $75000 stone, and let you know how it works. I promise to send it on to the next person when I am done with it.
James.
Very nice. It's like the Nakayama hall of fame. What makes some worth 35,000 and other Nakayama's worth only 500 usd. The one's we buy from Old School, 330 mate and the like, I mean, They are great hones and work well. What then is the difference.
Even So at Japan tool as Bruno mentioned has very expensive stones. he showed me one Identical to my Asagi, which has Maruichi Stamps, etc..All the Kanji, So's was 2000.00 while I paid 425.00, so What is the difference. I would love an education on this....I have several Japanese Naturals, Kiita, Asagi, Suita, and they are amazing. I never paid over 500 for any of them....
Sounds like a plan. I'd love to see what my blade feels like off a 5000.00 hone....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I imagine there has to come a limit at some point. Just the basic properties of the steel and temper if nothing else. I find it difficult to believe a more expensive stone could make a marked improvement over what I already get off the asagi.
It just must be a matter of size and rarity with these multi-thousand dollar stones.
James.
Also remember in Japan there is a certain group who covet these stones not for their abilities but just to collect. My understanding is they value them according to color and inclusions and patterns and the locations they come from and the prices can get really astronomical.
Proshophokuto sells stones from other mines as well. Can I presume the other stones are as reliably sourced?
tbs is spot on. I've listened to So wax lyrical about various stones he showed me & it was like studying the surface of a Nihonto. They do collect for aesthetic reasons but the one Hatanaka stone (a Suita) that I borrowed for a short time was pretty amazing in function.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Very fast & very fine. I normally use a Suita after 8k but the Hatanaka stone made the 4-8K range redundant ... but my call was not to spend the money. I've got more time than money :p
As Alex mentioned the really expensive ones are just consistently uniform and you know that after 1/2" into the stone you are still getting the same quality grit. Cheap stones, cheap by the standards of Nakayama, would have some "impurity" not uniform color, or not exactly the true color etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
My Asagi just because was not the true color(just slightly darker) cost me 500 bucks, and according to So it would have been 2k+ if it was not for the color.
Another consideration is the stone performance. I learned in my talks with So, that Asagi are very scratchy and therefore not all Asagi are good for razors, only the ones with finest and least scratchy grain. Kiita is even more expensive because its not as abundant as Asagi, since the layer was depleted before the Asagi layer. Kiita also is not really suitable for razors unless there is a very hard stone which is rare and brings the price even higher. Kiita in general is for tools and knives because they are not generally hard, not as hard as Asagi at least.
Drop me on the phillistine side of the fence here. This just seems nuckin futz to me. For that kind of cash I should be able to pay for genuine Japanese girls to shave me.
lol! That is exactly what So told me about mine also! :D At least, that it would have been a more expensive stone otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
James.
I don't mind a stone that is not of "pure" color, it works just fine for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I bet one has to try quite a few of those to actually pick up any difference, in the edge.
Oh definitely! I have absolutely no complaints either, and I think the colour is wonderful even if it is not "pure".Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
I agree also with the idea of needing to try a few to pick up differences. Problem is the price makes doing so reasonably prohibitive. So I have adopted a rather simple strategy - I just say that my stone gives the best edge possible for my needs, and do not admit arguments to the contrary! :D
(I do have a few actually, but the Asagi is the best of them as a finisher. Unfortunately I have been a victim of the "good on top, but crap 1mm down" suita, which is a bummer.)
James.
Jimbo, Did you get a layer of pits or sand inclusions ? Obvious question but have you tried lapping another 1mm past the crap layer ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Oz mate, I have tried lapping mms and mms, even took it to cement to try to get past it. It has the toxic su or whatever So calls it. It is a very hard stone, and lapping it is quite difficult and time consuming. I have not given up hope on it yet, as So tells me it could be a very good stone if I can get past those layers. But I have to admit since I got the Asagi I have not really tried more lapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
James.
Mate , maybe an angle grinder might be the go. Just kidding but surface grinding something that hard would be pretty frustrating to do by hand. Don't blame you giving it the flick.
Just thinking out loud, I wonder if a headstone maker at a cemetery would have machinery to do that. They polish marble & granite after all.
Sounds like you're set with the Asagi tho.
How much would it cost to send it to its homeland? I'll give it a proper ceremony... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
There is a huge jump from the retail stone shop like Pro Shop Hokuto in the countryside outside of Tokyo to the boutique in Kyoto of the mine owner Hatanaka-san. And there are other mine/owner run retails in Kyoto also, and the fellow like me or So-san selling on the internet or out of our shops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
Stones are graded and priced almost before they leave the mine, a miner following a seam has a pretty good idea what came before in this strata and what will follow. Once it is in the cutting room it is a done deal. These guys are so in tune. Just think how much you would know about stones if that is all you had been looking at since you were a teenager and now you are 50 years old.
The stone you bought for $500 is only worth $500, after all you bought it from a professional, he knows and you trusted him. The next level of pricing is the $1500 to $3000 range. These stones are finer and cut faster and are usually larger. Above $3000 it will become more exotic as you go up, clearer, certain colors, larger sizes, renge, nishiji, black renge, any thing that adds rarity or speed. For users these upper price points represent the ability to get the finest edge possible in the quickest time. Savant sharpeners or sharpeners who are expected to have the sharpest tools and ego maniacs will be buying these stones. People using these stones will have sharper tools or razors than you do, and they know it.
Anything above $15,000 is investment grade or fun money toys for the super rich or gifts which is a big thing in Japan. There will be stones that pass from hand to hand with no money involved for various reasons, like charity, obligations what ever. Also the samuri culture continues in Japan behind the scenes, a culture where money is not the object and honor is all. Have you ever heard of a face passport?
Alx
Stefan, I generally agree with you.
Asagi are not really a super rare stone structure from the mines of Kyoto, they come from the tomae stratas, and are usually a light color gray and can have some streaks of other minerals in them. Most if not all of the mines had a tomae strata that contained asagi stone. Asagi are generally hard and can be regarded as scratchy and they were overlooked as usable stones up untill just recently for general sharpening because they could scratch the blade if used by sharpeners with less experience. It tkes a very even hand to use an asagi with just water. The invention of the diamaond plate has changed all that, now with super hard stones a little slurry can be raised with a diamond nagura (diamond plate) and this helps in drawing the tooth out of a really hard asagi toishi. Without the slurry blades tend to skip over the stone without really bitting the grit. Because of this there are a lot of leftover asagi stones in stock in Japan. The suita stones were so easy to use and the asagi so troublesome that the suita got bought up and used while the asagi were left on the shelves.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Every mine had some strata of asagi, and they were usually from the deeper strata in the mine, compressed under millions of tons of other rock above it. Some are very very fine and are great for razors. For other tools the edge off an asagi is a difficult nut to crack. Just like other stratas, not all asagi is created equal.
Kiita stones of a certain yellow are gems to use, very fast cutting and some can be the finest of grit. Also you can find kiita stones with light brown spots of nishiji minerals which enhance cutting speed.
Alx
Alex,
I did not meant to say that Asagi are rare, just that they appear to be scratchy and razor quality ones are not so abundant. So pretty much said the same, high quality Asagi is really hard, cuts fast, and its scratchy, but because of that inexperienced person can mess up an edge very easy.
Stefan
I will go along with that. alx
These photos show some asagi and kiita stones.
www.thejapanblade.com/color_stones1.htm
Rich, I've had a 35k Subaru and several 1200 Hondas. The latter is pathetically slow and often dubbed the torqueless wonder. It's really evident the quality and performance you can get with higher priced vehicle. Price is fraction of modern day supercar but is still a turbo with actually decent gas and symmetrical AWD. Here, one can only presume the stone in question cuts faster and larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
Have you thought about using a belt sander to try and get through that surface?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Just got my Kiita from O_S today. :D
This has been a really educational thread guys.
Thank you.
Oh, the eye candy is killing me!!!!
Lynn