The new High Carbon Glass stones are excellent

I have the Naniwa Superstones, Shapton Pro, Shapton Glass, and now the Shapton High Carbon Glass.

The HC Glass Stone feels hard and smooth like the Shapton Pro, but the scratch pattern is more consistent/smooth and it very quickly achieves its true grit. It cuts very fast and doesn't wear much, and it doesn't load up as easily as the other fine grit stones.

The feedback "feel" is different. It's not nearly as gritty as the Naniwa SS, it just glides quietly. It doesn't load up as easily as the Naniwa finer grits. There is less haziness to its finish. The Naniwa has more feedback because of the grittiness, but the HC Glass stone's smoothness makes sharpening more effortless (also less suctioning effect with full wedges). The HC Glass stone needs less frequent lapping. Less likely to gauge too as it is a hard stone.

The stone is only available in 4k-6k-8k but it is quite fine for its grit rating. You can finish your razor on the HC 8k (slurry->clean water->dry). Optionally a few strokes on a loaded strop/newsprint, and shave.

I've also tried honing very wear resistant steels on the HC Glass stone like S30V (63 rc) and ZDP-189 (66 rc), and it works great. Cuts fast. Mirror polishes very well.

I think the Shapton HC 8k would make a huge upgrade for Chinese 12k users. It feels kind of similar (smooth and hard), finishes a bit finer, and cuts much, much faster. You can cut up your Chinese 12k to use as a slurry stone for the Shapton HC.

Thanks for the review. I have the shapton pros but not the glass. My Naniwa superstones don't feel 'gritty' to me at all. Some do load up a bit but I like the feel and the results I get. One of these days I may try one or two of the new glass stones.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks for the review. I have the shapton pros but not the glass. My Naniwa superstones don't feel 'gritty' to me at all. Some do load up a bit but I like the feel and the results I get. One of these days I may try one or two of the new glass stones.

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What I meant was, with the Naniwas you can feel some friction. Not as much with the 12k, but definitely with the lower grits. Whereas the HC Glass stones are very hard and slippery, just gliding through, w/o that feeling of friction. It reminds me of my Ch 12k w/WD40 except it's a lot faster and more consistent finish.

Another difference is that the Naniwas give a cloudy finish when you use less pressure. You don't notice it with most razors but it happens with full wedges because the higher surface area reduces the effective pressure, and you get a cloudy finish. This HC Glass stone gives a mirror polish on full wedges. It's like an oilstone in this aspect and the fact that it glides very smoothly. But yes the Naniwas still give the most honing feedback.

I don´t want to argue, but my naniwa super 8.000 and 10.000 leave a most bright and mirror finish,
and both produce nothing hazy at all.
I heard of a hazy finish left from the SS 12k once,
but I can say *my* Superstones polish very brightly

I polish kitchen knives with wide bevels as well and never had such a problem. Do you use slurry on the Superstones?

But to get back to topic;
I am really interested in the new Glass Stones.
How much is a 8.000 grit HC GS? And, let me guess, these are available in US only, right?

I just ordered the 4k and 8k as well as a 16k non HC this morning. Due to your comments and discussion with Lynn.

So are these the very same glass stones that are also known as the "grey stones" or the "J version glass stone"? If so I must add that the 8k that I got a while back is very, very freindly to many razors. More so than the white ones, the caveat is you might find certain more contempory steels better on the white ones. Certain steels gunk it up faster than the white and that smooth feeling goes away until you lap. IMHO if they are the same ones as my grey 8k. If not disregard.

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

So are these the very same glass stones that are also known as the "grey stones" or the "J version glass stone"? If so I must add that the 8k that I got a while back is very, very freindly to many razors. More so than the white ones, the caveat is you might find certain more contempory steels better on the white ones. Certain steels gunk it up faster than the white and that smooth feeling goes away until you lap. IMHO if they are the same ones as my grey 8k. If not disregard.

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yes, they are the grey stones.

isnt it a concern that the HC only go up to 8K? how does that cmopare as a finisher for razors to the regular 16K?

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

isnt it a concern that the HC only go up to 8K? how does that cmopare as a finisher for razors to the regular 16K?

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I wont speak for the others, but I had no issues with the five razors I honed up last night and tested this morning. Two of them got 5 passes on a barber hone, otherwise it just was 30 on linen and 30 on latigo.

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

isnt it a concern that the HC only go up to 8K? how does that cmopare as a finisher for razors to the regular 16K?

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A friend of mine in Taiwan has a 10k gray shapton glass stone and is very enthusiastic about the performance. He says he likes the edge it gives to a razor better than the 16k.. Eventually the 10k will probably be stateside.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

A friend of mine in Taiwan has a 10k gray shapton glass stone and is very enthusiastic about the performance. He says he likes the edge it gives to a razor better than the 16k.. Eventually the 10k will probably be stateside.

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Interesting

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

isnt it a concern that the HC only go up to 8K? how does that cmopare as a finisher for razors to the regular 16K?

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On some steels, the 8k leaves a very fine edge. I don't play with it as much as before (Natural Syndrome), but don't get hung up on the grit number with this one. It does a superb job and is not scratchy at all. FME, it does better on some steels and not so on others.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

A friend of mine in Taiwan has a 10k gray shapton glass stone and is very enthusiastic about the performance. He says he likes the edge it gives to a razor better than the 16k.. Eventually the 10k will probably be stateside.

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How strange that these HC stones are going by 2k increments. Those who already have the 8k HC would want 16k not 10k!

These HC stones do seem to be very fine for their respective grits though. The grits may correlate closer to the Naniwa series than Shapton series. At least the scratch pattern is finer than the Shapton Pro's that I have at the same grit. I only have Shapton Glass at the lower grits so I can't compare.

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Originally Posted by Kingfish

On some steels, the 8k leaves a very fine edge. I don't play with it as much as before (Natural Syndrome), but don't get hung up on the grit number with this one. It does a superb job and is not scratchy at all. FME, it does better on some steels and not so on others.

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I think we should just give up on grit for stones (not sandpaper). They should just go with "fine, extra fine" or some proprietary scale (like 1 to 10), which would then have to be xplained by human beings. Because that's what we have now anyways with this putative "universal" system.

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

I think we should just give up on grit for stones (not sandpaper). They should just go with "fine, extra fine" or some proprietary scale (like 1 to 10), which would then have to be xplained by human beings. Because that's what we have now anyways with this putative "universal" system.

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How true. Then to make any scale try to describe coti or other naturals that can set a bevel all the way to polishing. Maybe one scale for grit range, one for feedback, another for smoothness etc. I think it is fair to say that when grit scales begin to bore you you are getting mighty deep into HAD and likley not to recover.:)

I have these stones, originally bought for my japanese knives.

Looking for reasons to further justify the purchase, I have recently gotten into straight razor shaving :)

I recently honed a razor myself and the shave, all things considered, was pretty good. But I think I could have done a better job, and I was hoping you guys could help me with that. Can someone who uses these stones give a quick rundown on approximately how many laps on each stone would be necessary? And how to make a "slurry" on the 8K? Assuming the razor just needs a re-honing, and isn't damaged or in otherwise poor condition, of course.

The only Shapton GS I have is the 16k, and that was thanks to the extreme charity of a member. I would love to get the entire series, but for now I am asking for anyone else who is considering them. So, for anyone who is considering the entire set, would you recommend the whole white series, or the white series with the available grays replacing their counterparts, or, worst case scenario, the whole white series plus the three gray ones.
I know I want the last option, but I'd like to read discussions about this.

I know I have brought this up before but, regarding the Shapton Glass hones intended for razor use I have read (albeit in Japanese from the Shapton website) that the hones they feel are the best performers, and most suited for razors are the #3000 the #10000 and the #30000. All of the others starting at #2000 to #8000 are ranked one step below the previously mentioned top three. The hones lower than #2000 and the #16000 rank lowest for use with razors.

For some reason the #16000 that many of you use and love is supposed to best suited for both Japanese and Western chef knives, other knives, and scissors. The second ranking of the #16000 is for Western planes. And the lowest assigned to chisels, Japanese planes, and razors.

I wonder what, in the #16000, it is that Shapton feels is not suited for razors? It is so puzzling to see all of the great feedback from razor users and yet Shapton's position about suitability remains the same...

FYI, I have no desire to buy and use the GS stones, I am happy with the Naniwa Chosera's and J-nat that I currently use. But I am interested in the Gokumyo stones that are also made in Japan, but by Suehiro. But these are only available in #10000 #15000 and #20000 and cost a pretty penny too.

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Originally Posted by ZethLent

FYI, I have no desire to buy and use the GS stones, I am happy with the Naniwa Chosera's and J-nat that I currently use. But I am interested in the Gokumyo stones that are also made in Japan, but by Suehiro. But these are only available in #10000 #15000 and #20000 and cost a pretty penny too.

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Oh come on, Seth! It's just 75,000 for the set! :mace:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Oh come on, Seth! It's just 75,000 for the set! :mace:

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Well, I got excited when I looked at the link but was less so when I did the yen to dollar conversion and got $928!
Maybe not this week.
:rant:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Oh come on, Seth! It's just 75,000 for the set! :mace:

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Ha Ha Ha... Well it is about what I paid for my current set up of three hones, my finisher bearing the majority of that cost. And it's only 1/3 what I reccently paid for my new set of GHB, and that is where time and money are being directed right now so it's a NG for the time being.

In comparison to j-nats they are quite nicely priced. But in comaprison to other ceramics, they are in another echelon. I have been told though that they aren't as hard/slick as the GS stones and aren't as soft as the Naniwa's. They are reputed to not change shape when soaked as some of the Naniwa's will do from time to time. And in the write-up it says they are quite heat resistant too.

Hi Zeth,


I once was able to try the Gukomyo 20k for several days and razors.
I tried it for Razors as well as kitchen knives and wrote some of my experiences down in the Knifeforums:
20000 grit stone anyone? - Knifeforums.com - Intelligent Discussion for the Knife Enthusiast - Powered by FusionBB

I found the 20k to be comparable in hardnes and feel to the Chosera line.
And btw. they are in fact available at other grit ranges, but still cost a fortune:
http://www.suehiro-toishi.com/gokumyo/gmseries.html

Meybe that will help you.


Regarding the Shapton GS white vs grey, I don´t really see a big difference.
I own the 1k (white), 4k, 6k, 8k (all grey) and 16k and 30k (white again) and am having no difficulties with inconsistencies.
I don´t believe anybody would have difficulties using the whole set in white, either.

Manufacturers sometimes have funny ways of examining and rating their products.
I have no Idea why a Shapton 16k would be not considered for razors.
But to give Shapton credit, I don´t think they would call it a no-no,
they just don´t recommend it wich means, they haven´t tested it.
Usually manufacturers will only recommend soemthing, if they have tested it and are 100% sure it works.
Otherwise they tend to say "don´t do it, we haven´t tested it so it could go wrong"

I will have to very respectably disagree with you on some points, I read your review on the 20k stone and I think some of your opinions are maybe a bit flawed. For example why would shapton a very reputable stone manufacturer not test their stones on razors? Even if they didn't the edge that the stones they produce isn't vastly different from the edge on a knife or axe, the method for sharpening is.

I have also tried explaining several times that a grit rating while useful isn't that important when it comes to the edge produced, for example everyone knows that garnets in coticules are pretty big compared to other stones that achieve a similar effect on steel. Also the so called scratch pattern is flawed in terms of how sharp the object is, for example if I were to use a knife and cut the steel it would leave a perfectly smooth bevel, no scratches at all, yet the edge might not be as good as say the edge off a JNAT which leaves a pretty harsh scratch pattern but the depth of the scratches is pretty shallow and also the serrations on the edge are different giving a different cutting effect.

So I just had a few free minutes and thought I'd call up Shapton and find out what they had to say. I spoke to a guy named Nakai (may.

Apparently, the recommendations are based on the idea that the 30000 is the finisher, and everything else is decided on how much time it takes to move up in that progression. Thus, the jump from 10000 to 30000 is not so high, and the jump from 3000 to 10000 is not so high, and that's your progression. They (not too surprisingly for Japanese honing) think that anything less than 3K is too rough for a razor, and an 8K is not fine enough for a finish for a razor, and the jump between 8K and 30K is too big. He didn't even mention 16K, but it was clear--the 30K is their finisher.

He also mentioned that, if you WERE to use the 8K, he recommended the HC version, as although the grit size is the same as the other stones they tend to be less exposed and thus leave a finer finish. (Not clear how that works, but that's what he said.)

As a closer, he told me I should call Harrelson Stanley at HMS enterprises, saying the guy knows more than anyone about Shapton stones...but I got some good Japanese practice, anyway.

I dont have the HC stones but I do have the 1/4/8/16k white ceramic on glass stones and they really are excellent.

I love the finish from the Naniwa stones but I do find they load up quite fast and dish pretty easily. The Shaptons are more aggressive cutters so you have to be more careful with them, but they are very hard wearing and put a killer edge on a razor.

Hi Memorael

no offense taken, non at all :)
I hear what you say about the scratch pattern and the shaving quality. I do not get tired to point out well enough that these two hardly have anything in common. I just prefer a tidy polish AND a good level of sharpness.
Like I mentioned, the 20k as well as the GS30k or a Nakayama produces a very nice, smooth edge.
If it didn´t, the stone was crap.
But at that expense I want the edge to be smooth, and well polished.


What I meant with Shapton didn´t test it, is probably they didn´t test it officially.
Let me give an example. I used to work for a company that makes surface technologies for corrosion protection.
They invented a product that can be applied to a steel surface to protect it.
The lawyers of our company said we were not to say it works on any steel
but only on these types we tried and have actual proof it works.
This includes many test runs wich are time consuming.
So we went on saying it works only for these we tried it on.

The thing is you never know if it *really* works the way you want it.
If it doesn´t (ie the edge of a razor is not shavable) but you said it works,
you can get sued yur pants off.
That´s why I thought maybe shapton didn´t go all the way with the gs 16k
and examining the edges produced on most razor steels,
but only for their high level 30k.

But that´s only an assumption, and to be honest Jims explaination is even better.
They want to market their 30k as an ultimate finisher (wich in my opinion it is ;) ) and not te 16k

Awesome that makes perfect sense, I have a funny story about my stones. A couple of months ago I was getting pretty tired of having to soak stones and then put them away and what not that I was like ok screw it, and ended up buying a bucket and putting ALL my stones in there including some choceras, SS and other magnesia based stones and what not... I am actually thinking about throwing in my naturals too which are inexpensive of course. Anyway up to today I have had no problems whatsoever with cracking or melting away or any other bad thing that could happen to my stones, the cool thing is they actually take on a whole different set of characteristics some became softer and some I can't really prove but I think became harder but the cool part at least for me is they all behave differently and in my opinion I like them better like that.

The educational part is most of these stones are not meant to be soaked indefinitely which I think is similar to your explanation about the 16k not tested officially. One other thing, I am having a hard time finding a better finishing stone than the SS10k (in terms of more balance than other stones) I get the best mirror finish, the sharpest edge and overall the best ease of use. Some other stones leave a better edge but the polish lacks and I can't find a better mirror finish than SS10k. Well I hope you guys get the point. Thanks for reading!!!

I highly doubt that the 16000 is 'untested'. Look at the pdf of the glass hones (BEWARE this is a 36 MB download for slower internet connections it might take quite a while to download). Even though it is in Japanese you can see the pics of the edge after it has been honed on each hone. There are also 3D images of the scratch pattern on the bevel left by some of the hones. The blade in all of the photos is a razor made of Swedish steel.

The pentagon graph that accompanies each photo describes the five characteristics being tested. Starting at the top (and moving clockwise) of the pentagon is Feedback, Matrix Strength, Resistance, Hardness of Abrasive, Abrasive Grain Distribution.

I also had translated the descriptions of the 1~5 for each element on the pentagon graph but I cannot seem to find it. I am pretty sure that the hones are all tested equally.

The apparent difference in the #16000 over the #10000 and the #30000 is the lower number for grain distribution. Maybe that is all that sets it at the lesser categorization for razors...

It is also possible that the person doing the honing test for each hone is not using light pressure and has therefore made the #16000 the lesser categorization from heavy handed honing. This is just speculation on my part though.

Seth,

Nakai certainly seemed to know about traditional Japanese razor honing, so I imagine there was some pressure involved.

wow Seth, I did not know there was such a paper from Shapton. This is very informative and blasts my theorie into oblivion ^^


Is it possible to find out at which magnification these pictures where taken and what kind of equippment has been used to do so?
Btw. interesting how the 10k has a lower surface roughness than the 16k!

Regarding the magnification of those 3D graphs, the two long axis are in microns and the small scratch depth measurment on the left is in nanometers. The very first blank 3D image is the explanation for the measurements.


And yes the #10000 has a shallower scratch pattern to the #16000 at 43.24 nm max depth for the scratch pattern versus 65.78 nm on the #16000. Maybe it has to do with the abrasive distribution? The #16000 having clumps of abrasive to a greater degree than the #10000 and #30000? The #10000 is also more expensive than the #16000, there must be a reason.

I actually meant the magnification of the pictures of the edge, not the 3D models