Printable View
I was watching this item here on ebay (Item number:320491779426) and wondering if one of us got it ? One way or the other, does anyone have any experience with one of these beauties ? What are the honing characteristics compared with similar and perhaps more well known stones ?
I bid on that one too, but no luck. Didn't realize it would go for so much money!
If anyone here bought it, I'm sure you'll get an answer to your question. I'd really like to know how it works too.
For what it is worth, I did manage to snag a nice looking Charnley Forest hone last week, and when I get it, I will post photos and comments here.
Now, if I can just find out what these Devonshire oilstones are all about . . . !
Some time ago I was put in touch with a gentleman who was in the "business" in the 60's and 70's, he owned a general hardware store and we had a number of lengthy discussions about the straight razor scene and honestones. At one point he was retailing NOS Silkstones, and was very enthusiastic about their performance, although he still maintained that the German hones were the best finishers for razors. He couldn't provide me with any information about the origins of the stone, or the company retailing them, but he really knew his stuff when it came to hones so I trusted his opinion. Some time after, an SRP member, I think with the username Nerobot or some such, got one and said he thought they were only in the 5-6k range, which was at odds with what I'd been told previously, but qualitative experience is just as important as quantitive so I put the discrepancy down to natural variation. After months of struggling with the Devonshire Oilstone problem, I got some decent leads on other British hones, and was finally able to add three Silkstones to my collection. One in the green tin with the raised lettering and two in the grey cardboard sleeves with the wording, "A Cambrock Product. Made In England." Although whereabouts in England I'm afraid I'm still clueless, I've done a hell of a lot of reading on the subject of hones and I've never seen a reference to the Silkstone, nor have I seen it in any catalogues. Truth be told, in use it's just as much of an enigma; the one in the green tin is the best of the three and I've found it to be an excellent finisher on occasion, but my results with it have been rather inconsistent. It's a smooth stone, being hard there's little tactile or auditory feedback, but there is a distinct feeling of suction as you hone, which is more pronounced than most; this is also a good indicator of the progress of the edge as ultimately it feels like you are honing on honey. Personally, I much prefer harder stones to finish, but am willing to concede there is a steeper learning curve than with softer stones, and maybe this could be a factor in the differing opinions. I like the idea of using an English Hone with a Sheffield razor, no practical reason I just like the idea, but I've found that the Silkstone performs better for me with harder steel and thinner grinds. Although it's a hard stone, it isn't excessively slow, but it's strictly a finisher, and for me I go to it after a 12k or 16k synthetic. As far as the actual grit is concerned I wouldn't like to hazard a guess in this case, as I think the edge from the Silkstone has more to do with it's hardness and smooth polishing action, rather than the actual grit.
Petrologically, I want to say slate, but instinct tells me otherwise. Possibly, it is some type of indurated slate, but it performs differently than my Hestercombe Slate Hone, there is an X factor with the Silkstone that I can't put my finger on. I find it to be quite similiar to an ironstone/schist I have, but I've seen nothing to indicate the presence of iron in the hones makeup. Possibly, a slate/ schist of some sort. The stone is similiar to the Chinese 12k in hand, but not in performance, so I suppose it could be from a bed of similiar stone found in the UK.
Anyway, I like it but with reservations. I'm glad to have it as another representative of a UK hone in my collection, but that ebay price is seriously inflated based on my experience.
Kindest regards,
Alex
Wow, great answer!! Now that is some useful information. Alex, would you also mind my asking if you have similar info regarding the Charnley Forest hones? I just bought one without even knowing what I was bidding on, but the price (around $150) seemed at least reasonable for the size of the hone. Do you like them, how do you use them, do you know where they come from, and so forth?
And sorry for hijacking this thread!!:HJ
You bid 150 dollars without even knowing on what?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
The Charnley is a well thought of hone by some honing luminaries such as Lynn, Sham, Mcwolf and others. Lynn has mentioned finishing on his CF a few times and uses it in the most recent honing video meetup here. Both he and Sham prefer using theirs with oil IIRC. I got one from Sham and like it very much. I use water with a couple of drops of dish soap when I go at it. I don't know what size yours is but IMO if it is a good one $150 is a reasonable price. As with many of these naturals some are better than others. So if you got a good one it will be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
I didn't mean to misspeak. I just don't know very much about CF hones, and not nearly as much as I know about some other things, where the value of what is being offered is very clear to me. Frankly, if it's a great stone and cool to look at and use, then $150 is no problem. I mean, there's people out there bidding $300 for a broken Dubl Duck! $150 for a cool hone isn't that crazy.
PM Randy Tuttle. He has one or possibly two. I haven't asked him much about it. I vaguely recall seeing it in person. I do recall he said it/they will remain in his permanent collection and will never be sold.
Chris L
As he says about all of his stones.....:banghead:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Yea, but I think those bidders are nuts too. Of course, if I had the money or valued the item up for bid more than my money, I'd have no problem bidding whatever I thought was reasonable, either. It's just that "reasonable" and "value" are very relative terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
Last time I paid $150 for hones, I got a vintage thurry and two natural combo coti's.
Holli, great purchase, and you definitely have me beat!!
I really just wanted to know if anyone had used or knew a lot about these Charnley hones, and since the original post was about a Silkstone (another British natural, if that's the term to use), I thought I'd ask. I didn't mean to get anyone annoyed by mentioning the price I paid, which is admittedly a lot for a hone.
Thanks!
IME that isn't a lot for a hone. YMMV. :) I have paid a lot for more than one hone and I have no qualms about it although the prices will remain between me and the sellers. ";"Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
Actually, I just got the CF in the mail! It's cool -- the surface feels like a pair of really well worn khaki pants, not like an Escher or an Asagi. I think you use it with water, so I will give it a try on some blades tonight!
I know you can use a CF with water, but I've heard you can get better results with oil. Never played with the one I had on loan enough to find you, though.
I do have few CFs in my collection and I use them with water. They are great finishers and figures on them are so beautiful. For grit it is difficult to establish as I found is easier for mwe to hear the difference between two of them rather than see it. For price you reported I would expect something like figured CF size 8 1/2x 1/2 with not much damage to it.
Well, that's pretty close, actually. My CF is 8 x 1.9 x 0.9, and it doesn't appear to have any chips or damage to it at all. On the bottom of the hone, most of the surface is lapped smooth like the top, but the last inch and a half or so toward one end is natural rock "skin" -- like the surface of a rock. All of the other 5 surfaces are completely smooth planes with no chips or breaks. Hard to judge the color -- it's like an greyish olive green, and there's a very subtle grain structure to it that's a little bit easier to see on the sides than on the top surface.
Bottom line is that I was worried when I bought it, but this thing is great looking, and as soon as I can make a nice wooden base for it, like for a Japanese stone, I'm going to put it on display in my bathroom. Oh, and use it for finishing razors too (almost forgot that part!!)
If you haven't already read it, I posted this article on Charnley Hones a while ago. As has already been mentioned, those with more knowledge and experience than me have endorsed thue use of the CF as a razor hone. I really like my Charnley Hones, more so than some of the heart-stoppingly expensive Nakayama Hones I have. Charnley Hones are generally employed as oilstones, but I would try yours with water, with slurry and possibly with a soap lather before trying oil. If you do decide to use oil, avoid Linseed as this is known to harden the stone excessively and it's use is contraindicated in the older literature. I use some of my Charnleys with Circle Cut Safety Cut Cutting Oil, I've tried a number of different oils in the past, but this is the one I get the best results with on all the different oilstones I use. That being said, I find that the slurry I get from a Charnley is the most effective I have used, it refines the edge quickly and effectively without the dulling effect you can sometimes get with slurry on other stones; if using a Charnley to finish, I find I get a better edge going from slurry to water vs. plain water alone. Soap lather is also worth trying with an oilstone, I know that some of the threads on this forum have seen members get mixed results using lather on various hones, but I came across an old magazine article which mentioned using Palm Oil soap, instead of honing oil, to create a light lather on the hone surface, not only is this cleaner than oil, according to readers who wrote into the magazine it produces a better edge than oil alone. I've tried this with my Charnley's but I still find that I get better results having first raised a slurry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffE
One thing that I would say about Charnley Hones in general, is that if you have the chance, make sure to examine the hone in person. Obviously, this isn't going to be possible with an ebay purchase, but the first two Charnleys I bought had rough looking, glassy inclusions. I bought the stones anyway, thinking that I could lap past the roughness, but the inclusions, although they looked bad, had no discernable effect on the edge. Conversely, the next two I tried looked to have a uniform grain, the red blotches seemingly differing from the rest of the stone only in colour, yet they damaged the edge of the razors I tried on them quite badly.
I find that the green coloured Charnley's I have tend to be slightly faster cutting than the Whittle Hill ones, although the Whittle Charnleys are finer. In the early 1900's the good reputation of Charnley Hones was compromised by the availability of an inferior green variety, that was at one point, more readily available than the stones coming out of the Whittle Hill quarry. A lot of the negative comments in the literature are based on this particular type, and in general I would say that these reports exaggerate the slow cutting speed and excessive hardness people began to associate with Charnley Hones in general based on this inferior type. I have perfectly good green CF's, so again I would recommend trying a Charnley in person before writing it off due to colour or inclusions.
Although the hones coming from the Whittle Hill Quarry are generally considered to be the best quality, I now know that the people who wrought and prepared the hones for sale, considered the hone coming from the Thringstone Quarry to be the best. What I don't know (yet) is how to distinguish a Thringstone Hone. I've spoken to several researchers who have all told me, that in their opinion, Thringstone hones should be petrologically distinct, unfortunately none could tell me how. :(
Hope this is of some help.
Kindest regards,
Alex
IME with a couple of Charnleys I've also gotten good results beginning with slurry and diluting to water. Referring to finishing, not setting bevels or anything like that. I haven't used oil on mine but I have used a couple of drops of dish soap. I'd love to know where mine originated. It is the usual gray/green with the reddish purple streaking. No discernible feel from the reddish bits. Mine came in an old hardwood case with an ancient stropping leather glued on top. Cool old hone and about 10x2".
Dang, that is excellent information, guys!!! Alex and Jimmy, thank you so much! Got to head home now, but I really appreciate the information, and I will post about using the stone tomorrow. Thanks!
I must be lucky, my dad has given me his best CF after I borrowed it for a while. He sad it would suit my razors. Nice. Took back his India oilstone as it was to course
Also got a Silkstone though it needs lapping (have done a bit of lapping but it needs a bit more but ran out of W&D 600)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2540/...253fb901_o.jpg
No idea how much they are worth nowadays, was offered a couple of carborundum stones in exchange by a local builder once for it but told him to take a hike.
I'll raise it to three carborundums and a dragon's tongue :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie
Kidding aside, if it turns out to be a great finisher all the better. If you find you don't care for it you'll get a lot of $ on ebay if the last one that sold is any indication.
man, how do you guys find all these hones?! I am in awe. Is it mostly spending months/years scrounign around antique shops that dont know what they have? It's so tough only when you really can't tell what the stone is, and very few people know what they have. Do you find out the typical dimensions that particular stones (e.g. CF and Escher) were sold at, and use that as an indicator? Do you have to buy lots of stuff filter through lots of junk to occasionally get a diamond in the rough?
It's amazing how much greater the demand is than the supply on this stuff - I figure it can't last long. *Sombody* will have to start getting systematic at gathering up all the old stones around and selling them at a price which equalizes demand and supply properly AND various people (besides Ardennes Coticule) will just *have* to start mining natural hones again. I mean, we have the old mines still there in many places, PLUS we have modern mining and surveying methods. I know that the SR resurgence is pretty recent, but it really seems we should be coming up on some pioneers in this respect. Or am I missing something?
Lucky for me my dad is an engineer, he worked at the BREL York Carriage works for nearly 30 years as a coach-builder and amassed a few stones for sharpening his tools. Lucky for me he has a few CF's and has kindly given me the wider of the two and a very nice stone it is.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...etc-stone1.jpg
Yes, lucky indeed ;)
Id kill for a charnley or silkstone or escher or... well you get the idea!
Now you talking. Can I give you target?
Any chance of pictures of the hone itself too, Yorkie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie
I'll have a look, see if I've uploaded any. If not I'll have to take a few pics.
EDIT: Taken a pic..
some further pics i want to share here:
smal one:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7428/1...b2345cf8_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3742/1...5897830d_b.jpg
huge one:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/1...238dff19_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/1...552cdd9b_b.jpg
@Alex:
Read both post now, this one and the one where you really did a lot of research and work finding the "Devonshire Oil Stone"'which is described in the Work of Richard Knight in 1833...
I also was thinking on the Silkstone / Cambrock Oil Stone as reading both threads, my thinking was just that the Silkstone might have be a Candidate for a Devonshire Oil Stone not knowing any thing i must admit about the origin if the Silkstone...as far as in know it is still unclear were to Silkstones have their origin and who really quarried these stones, is that right ?
More is written on the page here (not mentioned as advertising in this thinking):
Vintage Cambrock Silkstone Hone in Wooden Box
If so whats kicking these Silkstones out of the race in probably beeing a Devonshire Hone ?
Any further explanations or informations ?
Neil's shop is well known here as well as is his knowledge around hones. Perhaps the exclusion could come from type of the geological background in that area.