A Discovery on lapping Shapton Pros and Naniwa Superstones YMMV

First of all I am rather anal about flattening my hones. I hone at the kitchen sink and start out with a DMTXX in a stone holder in the sink to support my Shapton GDLP. I'm too cheap to buy the Shapton stone holder and the XX supports the GDLP and raises it up a bit. If the grid shows the stone needs a lot of lapping I move the GDLP out of the way and get down on the XX until I'm almost there and than go back onto the GDLP.

I always draw a pencil grid on each of my Shapton pros, Nortons or Naniwas before beginning a honing session. I have found, for me, that my pros or superstones always need lapping before a session. The Nortons not always. This has to do with the polymer binder in the Shaptons and naniwas (maybe resin in the latter) changing from one day to another. This was revealed to me by forum member Blaireau who is a scientist in the field of polymers and the pencil grid proves to me that he is correct.

So what I used to do was lap each stone before I began honing. Sometimes this was a PITA and took awhile other times it went more quickly. What I've discovered is that if I spray the hone with water and let it sit for five or ten minutes the lapping time is considerably shorter. This is true of both the Naniwa SS and the Shapton pro IME.

I came up with this idea based on what I read here at this website. I don't know where they got their info because Shapton USA and Naniwa say don't soak the hones but it gave me the idea to let the water sit (I'm not soaking them) on the surface for a few minutes and I'm telling you now ..... the lapping is way easier. Give it a shot and see what you think. :tu

That echoes my findings too, Jimmy, both on the swelling/shrinking of different areas of the shapton glass stones on a daily basis and on the softening effect of water on the matrix. Thanks for pointing it out!

Regards,
Neil

Thanks Jimmy!

Thanks for the tip Jimmy. I hate lapping but love the results and anything to speed up the process is a plus in my book!

Does it lap easier or do you just have to lap less? Maybe the water soaking into the resin "dewarps" it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hydaral

Does it lap easier or do you just have to lap less? Maybe the water soaking into the resin "dewarps" it?

---

Dunno, but I think it softens the binder some and makes it easier. Less wear on the plate too if that is the correct interpretation.

But what would happen (speaking of the Naniwa SS) if you were to lap it as such, let it dry fully, spritz it again and go to work...should you expect as flat a surface as before when it was lapped while somewhat saturated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kwigibocity

But what would happen (speaking of the Naniwa SS) if you were to lap it as such, let it dry fully, spritz it again and go to work...should you expect as flat a surface as before when it was lapped while somewhat saturated?

---

I don't know. I have thought about that but I haven't checked with a grid and a plate. Some things are better left unknown. :hmmm: All I know is that the feel of the razor on the freshly lapped stone is better to me than if it is not lapped. I usually do two or three razors at a time since I'm lapping before every session. I also lap swarf off during the session if it builds .... and it does... I don't draw a grid for that but note the color of the surface. As I said in the OP, I'm anal about lapping so what I'm doing may or may not be necessary but it works for me.

Not quite the same technique but I find the same results to be true..
The Naniwa SS especially benefit from this, the Shapton GS also but not as noticable...

Start the process, fill sink or water pond with clean clear water drop in 1k stone.
Set up honing area get razors ready to hone (for me that means tape) get me ready to hone...

Take out 1k, and drop in next stone, do 10 figure 8's with lapping plate reversing stone after 5... Hone on that stone, do 10 figure 8's and set stone to dry.... Take next stone out of water, and repeat process by putting the following stone in water... Continue through entire honing progression leaving clean dry stones to put away ... OCD much??? :)

kwigibocity,

Re: Naninwas keeping their flatness after drying & wetting:

Not on my experience; I find that the Naniwas need flattening every time I use them :)

After a while, it usually doesn;t take too long to flatten.

Have fun !

regards

Russ

I do love the performance of the super stones, but they seem to want for lapping more than any other hone I've tried, and I've tried far, far too many.

One other thing I run into, more so with the 5k and above but especially with the 12k, is that a line of the honing plane running parallel and nearly adjacent to the long edges gathers swarf and gets rough much quicker than the rest of the hone. I can feel the roughness by passing my finger over the surface, so surely it'll affect things on the blade, and only lapping fixes it...I've tried to rub with soft scouring pads to just take out that swarf and it works but the surface still doesn't feel as it did when it was prettier. Never had this happen with a harder waterstone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kwigibocity

I do love the performance of the super stones, but they seem to want for lapping more than any other hone I've tried, and I've tried far, far too many.

One other thing I run into, more so with the 5k and above but especially with the 12k, is that a line of the honing plane running parallel and nearly adjacent to the long edges gathers swarf and gets rough much quicker than the rest of the hone. I can feel the roughness by passing my finger over the surface, so surely it'll affect things on the blade, and only lapping fixes it...I've tried to rub with soft scouring pads to just take out that swarf and it works but the surface still doesn't feel as it did when it was prettier. Never had this happen with a harder waterstone.

---

My 5k shows swarf relatively quickly while my 3k doesn't load up near as fast. I don't know how to account for that. I haven't encountered that roughness issue that you describe but I lap the swarf off often in the midst of a honing session so maybe I would have run into it if I didn't or I just haven't noticed it.

I think using an arkansas as Glen suggested or an iyo as I do or something else as a scrubber when things get dirty is a nice quick easy way. You dont have to pick up the hone or mess with the plate. My plate is in a stone holder and I found myself postponing if I had to reset everything for full lapping mode.

Since I started razor honing I have refined and revamped my whoule approach in several ways. Using the scrubber(neither rubber or slurry in the proper sense because I rinse the milk when i dont want it) is one of the big ones as I used to let things get quite loaded and only removed what would wash off with a bit of finger rubbing ;always a lot of gray left behind.

iirc what Blaireau told me the polymer will always aquire a slightly new form so lapping/ drying and later rewetting would not necessarily cause it to return to its former flatness

I hone standing up directly in front of the kitchen sink with the lapping plate sitting under the faucet ready to go. Refreshing the stone is quick and easy. When I'm removing swarf I just do a couple of swipes with the water running so I'm not removing much more than the swarf. I like honing standing up because my arm hangs naturally from the shoulder and I am not in tension while doing the stroke. As far as the instability of the polymer, I wonder how much is really being removed with a pencil grid ? Probably very little.

Togi- aji: a term I learned just last week means Sharpening Tastes.

what you look for in a stone you use and how you use it is simply a matter of preference

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevint

I think using an arkansas as Glen suggested or an iyo as I do or something else as a scrubber when things get dirty is a nice quick easy way. You dont have to pick up the hone or mess with the plate. My plate is in a stone holder and I found myself postponing if I had to reset everything for full lapping mode.

---

Yep works great, I use that for extended honing sessions, I never do more than 8 razors at a time but a quick little scrub down and rinse after every other razor keeps the stones clean and more important to me cutting the same for every razor (I do this is for every kind of stone not just the Synthetics)... I also shift the order of the razors as I move from stone to stone so one razor is never the first razor on the fresh clean stone every time...told you the OCD is not a bad thing in this hobby :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I never do more than 8 razors at a time

---

Because of the PITA lapping I started doing two at a time some of the time. I was thinking about guys who do honing for hire the other day. Those who have multiple razors to hone like Lynn and like you Glen. To me that would be a burden and I would eventually hate honing. The way it is now if I want to go hone a razor I do it. I honed a Red Point last night and a TI Super Gnome this afternoon because I felt like it.

I go back to work tomorrow for four days and I may or may not hone a razor again until Wednesday when I start my three days off. I like the hobbyist approach. I hone when I want to with no one wanting it yesterday. For me it would cease being fun if I had deadlines and expectations to contend with. I take my hat off to you guys who have the patience and fortitude to do the multiples of razors that you do. :tu

I'm with you Jimmy. I've often considered honing for hire but quickly talk myself out of it. Like you I like honing when I want to and don't want to be driven to it, although, and Carrie will confirm, when there are a bunch of recent purchases waiting to be honed or restored I gotta get them done ASAP! There have been times when I hone way more than a few razors at a sitting (I stand when honing also) but in the last month or so I've been backing off. This weekend may be different though. I've been taking a casual pace and now I feel like I gotta get 'er done and work through the pile of restores and honing I have piling up. :) And that means lots of sanding scales and lapping hones in the process:( Over all I really do have fun and it takes my mind on a nice journey into peaceful bliss!

Lynn does triple or more than what I do, he really is a machine...

The one true benefit I see though is the fact that you really get to compare razors in a true random sampling...From assessing the edge, to the honing, to the shave....That is part of it I love, and honestly the second I stop loving it, will be the same second I start turning down the work :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevint

I think using an arkansas as Glen suggested or an iyo as I do or something else as a scrubber when things get dirty is a nice quick easy way. You dont have to pick up the hone or mess with the plate. My plate is in a stone holder and I found myself postponing if I had to reset everything for full lapping mode.

Since I started razor honing I have refined and revamped my whoule approach in several ways. Using the scrubber(neither rubber or slurry in the proper sense because I rinse the milk when i dont want it) is one of the big ones as I used to let things get quite loaded and only removed what would wash off with a bit of finger rubbing ;always a lot of gray left behind.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yep works great, I use that for extended honing sessions, I never do more than 8 razors at a time but a quick little scrub down and rinse after every other razor keeps the stones clean and more important to me cutting the same for every razor (I do this is for every kind of stone not just the Synthetics)... I also shift the order of the razors as I move from stone to stone so one razor is never the first razor on the fresh clean stone every time...told you the OCD is not a bad thing in this hobby :)

---

So you two use a harder stone to sort of wipe down the shaptons while your using them to get rid of the swarf build up?

-----------
Regarding the comments on fun vs work as far as honing goes, something that stuck with me from my college psychology courses that I've observed in myself and others lots of times-- They gave some monkeys a hasp latch to play with in an experiment. They monkeys liked the latches, and they would sit there an open and close them over and over. I guess it was the monkeys idea of a really good time. After a while, they put the latches on a trap door, and the monkeys had to open the latch to get their food, which was under the trap door. The monkeys didn't play with the latches any more after that. When you gotta do it to get your dinner its just not as much fun as it used to be...

My scrubber is cut by most stones but doesn't just give up either.

I never do more than one razor at a time, I wouldn't need more than a few swipes to clean the surface for a few final strokes if needed.

Other tools may black the whole surface rapidly if I push a little =always needed.
keeping a clean hone I think cuts down on the #s of odd results. It is not wasting stone, it is more akin to best use; but one must always gauge that necessity

I'm curious - do you guys find that the shapton DGLP really is necessary? that thing is so damn expensive, turns me off from trying out even a single shapton stone.

also, you really use the DMT XX ? i dont have it, but I imagine that's pretty harsh. I've been using the D8C and it works great - on synthetics and naturals. I have a D6EF in the mail and I'm curious to see how those two levels work as well.

thanks for the tip about the lapping "prep", jimmy. i'll try it.

cheers

The Shapton GDLP is a fantstic tool it really is BUT no you do not need it...A DMT 325 will do just fine, just a touch more work because of the "sticktion" :)