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So, which is the best finisher and why do you think so.
I read that you are not suppost to use a thuri on a razor after you have used a coti. Why?
I have a nani 12K Now. How will both of these compare?
I heard that a coti puts a smoother edge than other finishers. Why?
I know that is a lot of questions. I know everything you hear or read isn't necessarily so. I want to draw from the collective experience here.
Coticules and thuringians are both excellent finishers. There are subtle differences between them and people have their preferences. There's no way for me or anyone else to predict which one YOU will come to prefer, or why, or whether like some of us you'll decide it's six of one half dozen of the other.
I've never tried the Naniwa 12K but experienced honers who use it say it's awesome. By all means experiment with coticules or thuringians but before spending money (Thurries in particular are $$$$) you should know that according to many of the top honers here, including Lynn, the Naniwa 12K is in their league if not better.
And remember also that the differences between these and other top finishing hones are subtle enough that you'll have to be very, very good at honing before they'll become at all significant.
Back when the Norton 4/8 was the standard hone here, the word from the wise was you should learn to get every last bit of sharpness out of the Norton before worrying about which superfine finisher to add. That was a way to keep the emphasis on skills and not get on some hone-purchasing merry-go-round. Well, that advice holds true for the Naniwas too, if (as seems to be the case) they've replaced the Nortons as the SRP standard.
I'm a coti fan i would say coticule. If i was to want one finisher to use as finisher only and touch up hone i think i'd go for 10k naniwa and coticule. the coticule could do a little more as it is versatile the 10k can do just the finisheing and refreshing in much quiker timer and less laps . Due to the garnets in the coticulke they do produce a nic freindly edge. I don't think there are any bad finishers its just what you prefer. I prefer coticule second would be a naniwa. I tryed a thuringian and i did'nt take to it.
As has been said personal preferences will differ. IME an Escher or Thuringan is a superior finisher to a coticule. For sharpening to the finishing stage I'll take the coticule.
I am glad that I didn't read that business about not following a coticule with a Thuringan before I had already done so many times with great results. YMMV.
A naniwa 12k is a great finisher IME and may give more consistent results than some natural stones. Just IMHO.
What do you mean by "best"?
There will be an untold number of people who come in here and tell you what is best in their opinion and why, but until you try them on YOUR face, it's totally pointless. They are different, and they are both very good. MY face likes Coticule edges better, but I don't think that's enough to warrant a "coticules are better" response.
Truth is, they are both excellent.
I find my Thurry gives a finer edge than my coti. I think part of the reason coti edges feel so smooth is that they are not as sharp as other firishers (in addition to the way that the garnets cut) - just my own theory, not true by any means.
IME, coticule edges don't FEEL as sharp as other finishes (Thuringian, Shapton 30K, and others I've tried) , but I get consistently great shaves and have even gotten HHT-4 (consistently) and HHT-5 (quite rarely) quality edges. It's hard to say if they are actually as sharp, or not, as other finishes, though. I think the biggest difference is that they have garnets too big to allow for sharpness derived from striations in the edge and rely totally on keenness (V shape). I also think we need to weigh into this discussion how much more difficult it is to achieve those edges on a coticule. Just the finishing or retouching of a razor on a coticule with water only can take 60, 80, even 100 strokes IME to get the best results.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
That has to be considered when doing a "which is for me" analysis. Personally, I don't mind that. Having said that, they very well may not be as sharp as the other finishes, and I could be rationalizing... Dunno :shrug:
Mirrors my experience exactly. I happen to think that this is the reason many pro barbers back in the old days (when I was a young man and before) favored the coticule to as the go to finisher on the razors they used on their customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
I am new to straights.
I bought few days ago a coticule. As far as I have tried, I am 100% with richmondesi. Edges made by coticule feel very smooth and easy to handle !!
I'm a barber and have the privalege to talk to and no real old barbers aas old as 80 years old.They both say all they ever used was milk stone. We no them as coticules. I actualy saw the one my old mate used it was dished big time. He used it and his dad before him he is now 79 his dad is long gone. I've been playing with coticules for some time now. And i never thought it was possible to pass hht. i could never get a great shave neither. Now i can get get both and the smoothest edges i ever experianced. I no longer use paste as i don't feel it could improve on a well honed razor of the coticule.
I will admit they do take some practice and patients. It's natural to buy somthing else because your not getting the results with what you have. I'm sure if i worked with the eschers etc i would get same results . They will all do the same job if you no how to use the hone to its max. I just love the looks of coti there all differant this is what makes them differant
I use a Thuri after my coti, I like it!
I am a little confuse about original post.
why coticule and thuringian not an Escher ?
i would say what i know about both . coticule and thuringian will leave escher alone.
coticule i have owned many of them more then enough
have seen some will act seems like sandpaper(even while you hone you will hear that sound) very fast cutting and grit will be around 4k.
some will cut fast and grit around 8k level
Lastly which is i like most . My coticule which i kept it.
will put similar edge as thuringian. i called it bubbling coticule.
i send this particular stone to another srp member and he said this is some kinda marble not sharpening stone.(didn't like it at all)
He used his best coticule and sharpen the razor and send me the razor for shave test..
the shave was smooth shave but not as sharp as i like it but it was a smooth.
Now thuringian stones . Old ones are great will give sharp and smooth edge. New ones are horrible. I had 3 of them and none of them was satisfactory.
My advice to any new people .
don't start to learn honing with coticule. if you don't have any other choose buy coticule someone which will give to you guaranty that stone is mean to for straight razor. In this case you will be safe. hope this helps. gl
well i just like to hone and own at least one of all of those hones, i find my coticule gives a good start to going onto the thuri or escher, what i noticed after reading the posts is that nobody really compared results on which kind of razor...by that i mean , carbon or stainless...
I had trouble with stainless and did run through my sequence...test shaved and it sucked...ran to momma so to speak and learned that i needed to remove the scratch pattern from honing...i used my TOS and my escher..with great results.
The common thing here is that no one person is bang on, only experiences can tell you what suits you....great discussion guys liked it alot...this is my tuppence worth...lol..
Simon
Me too! IMHO An Escher or Thuringian is a Superior Finisher when compared to a Coticule....I feel the Escher gives you a much smoother, more refined edge than shaving off a Coti. Don't get me wrong, I love Coti's an own many, but if I had to pick one Finisher out of the two, it'd be Thuringian...Quote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
All Esher's are Thuringians, but not all Thuringians are Eschers....
It seems a lot of fokes do like the eschers/thur. I never tryed one and would'nt no a original one to be onest. Refering to the 12k you have jimmy does it improve after coticule ? I never tryed that neither. I no raspur finishers with 10k after coticule he does about 40 passes on the 10k.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I think that it would improve it Gary. I think it would be a keener edge but I've never tried it either. If I am honing with naturals I tend to stay with naturals. Wih nortons I might follow with a synthetic high grit after the 4/8 but many times I'll go with a coticule or an escher.Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
Sometimes I follow a Norton 4/8 with a coticule and shave with that or sometimes follow a coticule with an escher but never with a synthetic stone. I like to see how good an edge I can get off of the coticule .... or whatever so I don't try to get the razor sharper with paste or a synthetic.
Generally when I am honing with naniwas I stick to the naniwa series and with shapton pros I stay within that series. Of course there are no rules and anyone can follow one hone with another of their choice. It just seems to me that a series of hones designed with the same grit and binder ought to work well together and give more consistency. I have the feeling that the naniwa 12k is an even higher grit than what they are saying. At least it feels that way from he results I get.
I've used the Nani 12k after my Coticule. It works well, and will give you a keener edge.
There's lots of variances between Coticules, IME. Some are better finisher's and other's are better cutters. Some are on lower end of the grit scale, while other's are higher.
I.E. The pinker Coti's tend to cut better, while the yellow/green tend to be better finisher's. Also, I find that Tiger striped coti's cut well. You can always stop after a Coti and shave off it, but if you have Escher's or J-Nat's or even a Shapton 16k, Your edge will improve...
I've not got any of them to compare, so i carn't coment. I'd like to try them after i have honed to the max on coticule just to see if there is any diferance. All i can go by is the shaves i get of a well honed coticule edge. Which i carn't fault. I also had a razor honed by bart of the coticule, which we swoped and the shave was as good as it gets. I've had razors honed by a chap who hones using nortons then he finishes on the kitiyama. We both no who he is zib i'm not going to mention is name, but he does a greaty job. Compared to the coticule honing i still found coticule was the nicer shaver by far. I will have to get hold of a naniwa 10k and give it a blast. From what i can gather echers cost a bomb so i will give that a miss.
Gary,Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
Check Antique stores and Estate sales, sometimes you get lucky. Some guys have found them (Eschers) for 10.00 because the seller was unaware. Also, you can get a Thuringian from Mueller at Timber Tools.
I don't have any feedback on them, nor do I own one, but I hear they are good finishers comparable to an Escher...Maybe somebody has feedback on one....?
Aren't these new ones the ones that Sham said are "horrible" in his post above?Quote:
Originally Posted by zib
I've looked at them before . I've noticed people have mixed feelings about them
Escher/Thuringian/coticule: everyone has their own preference.
Most users attribute this to grit size: coti being 10K?, Escher maybe even 12K?
I recently found that the hardness of a hone also plays a role. A couple of razors that I could not get sharp on any of the above I tried on a no name hone I once got from an anatomy lab. gives great results.
The stone is very soft, it creates its own slurry when used with oil but not with water. Edges of my TI Silverwing and Torrey vastly improved. As I did not understand it I took my mike and found microchipping to be the problem.
IMHO we focus too much on grit size and too little on other factors.
So if you have problems with edges try a softer stone. IIRC you can actually ask for a soft stone at Ardennes coticule.
i have the new silver wing and i found it , should i say not as smooth as i expected. I used some TI rasoir and it transformed the ti to a very smooth shaver. Since then i have had a couple of new coticules from bart . And i can get the same smoothness of my La grosse jaune as it leaves a very smooth edge and refines with just water , some coticules are very slow with water this one has like stroping sound as i'm honing on water, a kind of draw. Also i can get a very good edge coming of slurry, some coticules realy dull the dge with slurry. So they all vary untill you no what there advantages are and disadvantages , they do take some getting to no. once you get a good one that works for you keep on to it.