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Just a quik question to escher users. on the labels it says to develope a lather/slurry with rubbing stone then slide your razor over and this will give a good durable edge.
I no some of you use water only and some fokes use slurry for finishing.
How many of you have tryed both if so which one gives better edge water or slurry or is there no noticable differance?
Hey Gary, it seems to me that doing a bit of slurry and the diluting method as Bart does on the coticule works well for me on an Escher. I've done it with and without and I like to use slurry. I think it does help things along a bit. However I know some guys who are happy using water only. Like a lot of this stuff, all you can do is try it yourself and see how you like it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
When using natural stones with a rubbing stone (such as an Escher,
Nakayama, or Coticule) I like to start with some slurry and then
finish without. I haven't done extensive experimentation, but the
few times I've tried both the water-only finish seemed a bit smoother.
I don't finish razors with these hones usually though, so my sample size
is much too small. If you do some experimentation of your own, let us
know how it goes!
- Scott
escher and coticule slurry i 'm sure are totaly differant. Coticule slurry carries garnets which cut and also dull at the the same time.Thats why its important to dilut on coti.
With an escher i should imagine the slurry won't dull the edge but polish a little quiker.
I will try when i can get hold of one .
When I first started using Coticules and Eschers, I always used them with a light slurry after the 8K for finishing. I have found over time that my results from a finishing standpoint are always better with water only. I also find the results with the Escher more consistent and better than when using the Coticule. That said, there is nothing wrong with the edges off the Coticule. Actually, I have gone to water only with my Jnats and am very pleased with the results as well.
Have fun,
Lynn
I have honed with and without slurry on my two Eschers, and my conclusion is that if I have properly set the bevel and gotten the razor shaving sharp on a Thuringian or Swaty first, that the results with water alone are as good as with slurry in the final honing on an Escher. I stopped using slurry on the Eschers after coming to that conclusion. Just speaking for myself and from my own experience. You can do substantial edge improvement using slurry, but it takes much longer than with the hones I typically use to set bevels.
Ok guys thank you for your knowledge. next question is how many finishing laps after your final hone say 8k or c oti etc are you doing ? i take it you get a much smoother edge. Do you find you get added keeness, or just smoother edge .
I'm a water only Escher guy probably because I don't have an Escher Slurry stone.
I'm not going to take sandpaper to it either to create one. Escher's are too precious to waste..I feel if your at the point in honing where you can use your Escher, A slurry isn't needed anymore. A wise man once told me, if you need a slurry, You need a lower grit hone....
As Lynn metioned, With the Jnats, I too use water only, and I do have slurry stones for them or nagura....
P.S. Gary, I normally do 10-15 on my Escher and test the edge, same for J-nats, Shapton 16k, etc...By the time your blade is ready for those stones, it should be shaving well, and not need much more, just some added keeness
It gets sharper on the Escher, Gary. I can tell the difference by shaving; without the final Escher laps (I do about 20-30 extremely light laps and check on arm hair) I can shave OK, but after the Escher the hairs feel like they simply crumble away from the edge, not just catching and cutting. the result is a closer, more comfortable shave.
I have both types and at the beginning used a slurry stone with the coticule but now just use water with both. As far as number of passes that would depend on the state of your edge when you start. For me I usually do 30 very light passes and test with arm or legg hair shaving. I usually wind up around 60 in the end.
I'm with thebigspendur on laps. Somewhere in the 30 to 50 range. I still like to do the slurry but a light slurry and dilute. The abrasive isn't garnet, it is quartz. What that means down here on the ground is beyond my expertise. As far as the Escher with diluted slurry compared to the coticule, to me it is a different stone so it is hard to compare the two. A lot finer IMO. As for Lynn getting better edges on an Escher with water only ..... Lynn could get better edges than me with a Chinese 12k and me with my Escher. :) It ain't the arrow, it's the indian. If I had Lynn's hand, and knowledge, I'd hone without slurry too. He knows what he is doing and I'm still trying to figure it out. :thinking:
On a comparative basis I am a beginner here, but the number of laps for me is determined by the feel and the sound of the stone. That is why I like a natural stone like the Coticule. I use a slurry and the Coticule is just in the middle of the progression that I use. The feedback is invaluable in determining the quality of the bevel that I have and sets up the polishing phase of my honing session. I don't do a lot of razors but they come out pretty well and it was not till I got my Coticule that I got the connection between an excellent bevel and the final edge.
Take Care,
Richard
I'm curious - Lynn and those of you who said you have shifted from slurry to just wate ron naturals - what exactly is the reason? Is it because you find the water-only gives you a finer edge? Or are there other reasons as well?
My understanding, and - I *think* my experience (mostly with Belgian and Japanese stones) is that slurries make the cutting faster, but also introduce an element of instability because it can be difficult to control the thickness of the slurry very precisely. Now, I have generally found that in the "finishing" stages the precision issue isn't much of a problem. There is also the idea that with most of the japanese naturals if you have a slurry, the slurry will break down as you hone and you can maximize the potential fineness that way. So far I havent been able to conclusively figure out how much of a difference that "breaking down" can make.
One other thing: one japanese stone expert told me that whereas usually a slurry decreases the effective grit slightly (say, 2-3K on average), with the very hardest, finest japanese naturals a slurry actually *increases* the effective grit by 2-3K, so one has to use a slurry to get the maximum fineness out of certain japanese naturals.
well i took a shave ready coticule honed razor. I rehoned with slurry just 50 laps. the razor shaved with resistants. I no for a fact you will get a finer edge with water, there is no way i would finish with slurry on coticule. With escher i'm not sure. I received my escher and have done the same thing. The shave was fine no dulling efect at all. So you carn't compare these two stones. i could not pass hht test on coti slurry after stropping. I coul;d of water on same razor. The scher after 50 laps on milky slurry. after stropping i could still pass the hht. This just tells me the escher does'nt slurry dull, like coticule does. Coticule has to be finished with water to be able to get a great shave.
when i have sahved of escher a thew more times with and with out slurry i will get a better idea of what i prefer.
there are some pictures of escher with slurry edge and without on srp some where. Both edges look the same. The coti edge with slurry looks sandblasted and with water looks much better. Big differances.
So realy the qquestion is to those that have tryed escher slurry and water for finishing only . have yo noticed a differance. If you shaved of slurry and thought boy this as took the keeness down , you just wouild'nt do it again. then by using water and you find the keeness is back to normal, you'd think i'm sticking to water.
I will only use as finishing hone. I will use my coticule to do the 4k work plus till i am able to sahve . Then i will add escher to see if there is a differance.
I don't use jnats. its took me long enough to get my head around a coticule
For what is worth I played with Turingian and and Escher both with slurry and the shaves are more than satisfying. I am going to test water only finish, but so far all my nat stones, Turingian/Escher/ Asagi slurry finish seems to give better results.
one thing i noticed. with slurry escher cuts quiker for sure
From what I have heard (I don't know a Thuringian or Escher,YET) is that the slurry just helps the stone cut faster but without harshing the edge, which is why some members finish on an Escher with Slurry even after a 10K hone to good results and a keener finish.
Well slurry increases the cutting speed of any stone if I understand correctly. When Bart began to post about setting a bevel using a coticule with slurry I tried to duplicate that with my light green (labeled) Escher, my fastest cutter among all of the various Escher colors. It wasn't happening. OTOH, for finishing the method of generating slurry and diluting it until you've gotten down to clear water seems to work very well for me.
I am not a geologist or an expert on the composition of garnet versus quartz within the coticule or Thuringan/Escher stones but it seems to me that the quartz in the latter is much finer and therefore beginning the honing with slurry on an Escher is effective. As I've noted in the past, I am following the instructions that the Escher company printed on their labels. If it were not advantageous to use the rubbing stone and create a 'lather' I doubt if they would have suggested it.
I have honed thousands of razors using both slurry and no slurry on naturals and at this point I have been finishing, following the 8K, with just water on the Coticule (my least favorite, but still a decent stone), Asagi, Kiita, Ohzuku and Escher. I have found the shaves to be definitely smoother and more consistent than when I use a slurry. The razors actually generate a light natural slurry after you do a few, but I really try to keep the stone rinsed with spritzing and it works very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Have fun,
Lynn
Gary - Just to say, yes, of course with the coticule it is a different story - there the slurry definitely lowers the effective grit (also increasing cutting speed, like with other stones).
For sure...finish on all hones with just water. However, progressing with slurry certainly improves speed and cut down on honing time.
Excellent thread, thougt provoking for sure.
Thanks,
Mac