First hones : do i need a 12 k hone ?

I am ready to order hones. I am considering Naniwa 3k, 8k and perhaps a 12k one. I am new to honing. I bought a Dovo 5/8 full hollow Silver razor and i only need to maintain the edge when it needs it.

I read a thread that stated that a 12k is not needed and should perhaps not be used by a beginner. What does a 12k give ? Will the 12 k provide a sharper edge ? If that is the case, would the Shapton 16 K be any better. I do not really want to getting into stropping at this point in time. I am looking for the simplest solution. I find there is enough to learn already.

Best Regards,
Michel

Personally I think you should stick with the 8K now as your highest grit hone and practice with it so you can extract every bit of performance out of that hone. You should be able to obtain a very satisfactory shaving edge from the 8K. When you have mastered that hone then you can try a higher grit for the ultimate in sharpening.

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Originally Posted by MichelG

I do not really want to getting into stropping at this point in time. I am looking for the simplest solution. I find there is enough to learn already.

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I apologize if I am reading this incorrectly. Are you looking to skip stropping completely?

For maintaining a razor, I think the 12k (or some other finisher) is a good idea. But when you start honing up razors on your own, I would not bother using anything past 8k until you can get great shaves off the 8k.

I would also suggest you learn to strop. You can practice with a dull razor until you get the hang of it.

When starting I feel that a fast cutting barber hone does more good than a slower and larger 12k stone... less chances of damaging the edge. Add some CrO on a strop and you're set.

But from an investment standpoint, if you know you'll stick with straight shaving, a naniwa or shapton set is tough to beat. I still use my chinese "12k" alongside a swaty barber hone with good results and don't feel the need to buy more stones. Also, I noticed that a lot of people have been "flipping" barber hones... meaning that they buy them for very cheap and resell them for 5-10x more. I'm all for capitalism but I just don't want to encourage those behaviours and markets. While I love my "sought-after" 3 lines swaty... I wouldn't pay 60$ for one.

I could never get a good shave off of my Norton 8k but I kept trying (very long hours...), after reading the posts of gurus saying that their technique was SO good they could get very nice shaves off of a 1k, 4k or 8k stone (or even cinder blocks! YEA, that manly) only to come to the conclusion that my face's skin was extremely sensitive and that a 12k polish really gave me the best shaves. Then I gave CrO a try and I get my best shaves everyday...

While it is true that good technique does wonders, it's not everything.
It won't change your cinder block into a Shapton 30k...

Trust your face, not gospel! ;)

First, let me clarify that i am stropping, don't get me wrong. I still have to master the terms that i never ever used and listenned to before i got myself into shavette and straight razor shaving. In my original post, i was trying to state that i am looking for fast and reliable hones and that i am NOT interested use PADDLE STROPS and / or pastes.

I see that advices vary from - 'you will get a good shave out of an 8k stone' to 'i never got a good shave out of an 8k'. Also, some of you responded that i need to get used to honing and that i need to get the most of the 8k stone before using a 12k or 16k stone for the 'ultimate' shave. Well, i can buy this and abide by this. However, i need to understand, and this is the reason for the post, what the 12k or 16k stone provides and what the 'ultimate shave' mean.

To those using the 12k or 16k stones, how different is the shave. I am interested in the practical impact on shaving experience. If you have a dense beard, do you feel that the shaving is any better ?

Also, what is the issue of using a high grit hone when starting ?

In my opinion, your beard type doesn't matter, your shaving technique does. Early on, however, you may find that a half hollow or heavier razor makes things easier - this is because they don't flex like full hollows, so they are, in my opinion, more forgiving of poor shaving technique.

I do think you will get a better shave with hones beyond 8k, but descriptions of "how much better" will vary from person to person. And how high do you have to go for the "ultimate shave" - well, as I see it, the ultimate shave is a bit better than anyone has ever achieved and always will be (in other words, you can never get the ultimate shave - something can always be improved through technique or tools).

I don't advise guys who want to hone their own blades to get a hone past 8k right away because, to be honest, it's going to take you some time to get all that you can out of the 8k. If you are not getting all you can out of the 8k, adding in higher grit hones won't really help at all. As such, there is no reason to spend the money on something higher than 8k right away. Better to get an idea of how much you like honing, how much you want to spend on hones, and what sort of hones you like before you invest the additional money. IMO, someone who says you won't get a good shave off an 8k either never tried it or doesn't have the technique (honing and/or shaving) down yet. When I was new, I fell into category a (and probably also category b), hence my signature.

The only reason I said I would recommend a 12k or similar to maintain razors is that a razor you buy shave ready will already have a well established edge, and you would only be touching it up, as opposed to taking it all the way there. As such, it is likely that you'll be able to benifit from a 12k or similar.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I don't advise guys who want to hone their own blades to get a hone past 8k right away because, to be honest, it's going to take you some time to get all that you can out of the 8k. If you are not getting all you can out of the 8k, adding in higher grit hones won't really help at all.

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+1, if it isn't shave ready at 8k you're putting chocolate frosting on dog doo. IMHO. I learned this early in my SRP journey from the SRP honing gurus and experience has demonstrated the accuracy of it. Nothing wrong with the high grit hones, and I have them, but if it isn't shaving at 8k it is back to the hones for me.

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Originally Posted by MichelG

First, let me clarify that i am stropping, don't get me wrong. I still have to master the terms that i never ever used and listenned to before i got myself into shavette and straight razor shaving. In my original post, i was trying to state that i am looking for fast and reliable hones and that i am NOT interested use PADDLE STROPS and / or pastes.

I see that advices vary from - 'you will get a good shave out of an 8k stone' to 'i never got a good shave out of an 8k'. Also, some of you responded that i need to get used to honing and that i need to get the most of the 8k stone before using a 12k or 16k stone for the 'ultimate' shave. Well, i can buy this and abide by this. However, i need to understand, and this is the reason for the post, what the 12k or 16k stone provides and what the 'ultimate shave' mean.

To those using the 12k or 16k stones, how different is the shave. I am interested in the practical impact on shaving experience. If you have a dense beard, do you feel that the shaving is any better ?

Also, what is the issue of using a high grit hone when starting ?

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Good to see a fellow quebecer around here... I'm from Montreal. Basically the higher grit stones will grind away microscopic (look at the abrasive grit comparison chart somewhere in the wiki) parts of the edge and make it smoother/refining it. The higher grit stones will provide you a smoother edge (if you have good technique)... and thus, probably a smoother shave.

That was exactly my point... I could shave off of a 8k stone but it's not as smooth as a 12k or 16k... And I think that's the point you're trying to raise. I use it because it makes my shaves smoother. Else, nobody would use and buy expensive finishing stones.

The issue most of the regulars raise with the "8k vs finishers debate" is that you should learn and optimize the basics before going on to try and polish a turd. Personally, I don't really care... I did learn the ropes and moved on to finishers and etc... but if a finisher makes your life easier go for it...

About the ultimate shave... to me it's just a standard I set for my shave... smooth, BBS, no ingrown hair, irritation, etc... which is usually attained daily by means of good prep and "after care". Oh.. and I have a dense, heavy beard and I think that the finishing stone has less impact than the grind of the razor I use in the quality of my shaves. A good 1/4 hollow is all I use.

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Originally Posted by MichelG

I am ready to order hones. I am considering Naniwa 3k, 8k and perhaps a 12k one. I am new to honing. I bought a Dovo 5/8 full hollow Silver razor and i only need to maintain the edge when it needs it.

I read a thread that stated that a 12k is not needed and should perhaps not be used by a beginner. What does a 12k give ? Will the 12 k provide a sharper edge ? If that is the case, would the Shapton 16 K be any better. I do not really want to getting into stropping at this point in time. I am looking for the simplest solution. I find there is enough to learn already.

Best Regards,
Michel

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First in case your are tempted do not mix vendors unless you must...
one vendors 10K might be another vendors 8K.

Since you have a sharp razor now you can buy hones to maintain
the edge.... i.e a Naniwa 8K and 12K. Naniwa hones cut so fast that with
extra laps the 8K can reach up a little bit if needed.

Shop around.. the NANIWA VALUE PACK - 5000, 8000 & 12000 GRIT STONES
that one of the sponsors has could be a bargain.

Do not ignore the work horse Norton 4K/8K combo, once the top millimeter or
so has been lapped off of each side it is a delux product. I have grown
to love the feel of the 8K side. The quality of the Norton 8K edge is such
that many folk do not want or need a finer hone.

Then there is the raw sex appeal of the SHAPTON CERAMIC
ON TEMPERED GLASS COMPLETE LUXURY SET that gives
my HAD a serious itch. I wish I owned some to compare
with my other hones.

Check the archives for reviews... there are a lot of them.

Lastly there is the C12K Natural Polishing Water Stone (12,000 Grit)
that is not quite a 12K. The price of the Guangxi stones makes
up for their reported slowness. For me my C12K does not polish like my
Naniwa Super Stone of the 'same grit'. But that is my point
on not mixing hone vendors....

Since honing is an uncommon activity a C12K hone as a touch
up hone might be the place to start. A C12K and one or two trips
a year to a honemaster may be the sharp pencil answer.

Many hones need lapping budget for a DMT lapping hone.

Thanks Tom and V76. I was also born in Montreal, but have moved to Laval - lot more quiet .

I appreciate all your comments. It is good to know that it is best to not mix hones brand. I would have been tempted to do just that. I did not rule out the Norton 4K/8K since this used to be the de facto standard before and people were happy with it. If i were to go the Norton route, would a Naniwa 12K polishing stone be a good one to add or should i stick to the Naniwa set?

I am asking a lot of questions about hones because i am still learning to use the straight razor . I shaved with a Shavette before and i have the impression that the Shavette was doing a better shave. My Dovo came shave ready, with the warning that the seller was not a honemeister and that he did not like razors that are real sharp. I have a dense beard and i find it is more work to cut the whiskers with the dovo than it was with the Shavette. Hence, i wanted to know if the 12K hone would eventually help. Looks like it may indeed help.

I also find interesting your comment that you use a 1/4 hollow. I read this was harder /longer to hone though. I originally wanted to buy a 1/2 hollow and the advice i got were that it did not really matter which one i would use anyway. The technique and how well it is honed really makes the difference apparently.

Thanks again,

Michel

You should get the edge as perfect as possible on the 8K and be able to get a nice shave off it, remember that. The Naniwa 12K will be VERY nice to your edges and improve the polish and results of it, but please don't try to improve an edge with a 12K if the 8k edge isn't good enough, you will be frustrated. I own the 12K Super Stone and I am in love with it. Any questions, please ask and have fun!

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Originally Posted by Disburden

You should get the edge as perfect as possible on the 8K and be able to get a nice shave off it, remember that. The Naniwa 12K will be VERY nice to your edges and improve the polish and results of it, but please don't try to improve an edge with a 12K if the 8k edge isn't good enough, you will be frustrated. I own the 12K Super Stone and I am in love with it. Any questions, please ask and have fun!

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+1 exactly...
The decision is as much a budget choice as any.
The Norton 4/8K plus the 12K Super Stone are my
stones of choice for my shavers. Most days I only
pull down the 12K.

I can't thank you enough all of you who responded. You responses were very useful. I am now convinced that i need to order the 12K super stone AND either the Norton 4K/8K stone set or the Naniwa 3k/8k set. I also clearly understood that i must get a good shave off the 8k stone before i even consider using the 12k stone.

Thanks, i am going to order in the next couple of days after i have compared prices. When i get the stones, i will open a new thread if/when i need help when i first use them.

Best Regards,

Michel

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Originally Posted by v76

But from an investment standpoint, if you know you'll stick with straight shaving, a naniwa or shapton set is tough to beat. I still use my chinese "12k" alongside a swaty barber hone with good results and don't feel the need to buy more stones. Also, I noticed that a lot of people have been "flipping" barber hones... meaning that they buy them for very cheap and resell them for 5-10x more. I'm all for capitalism but I just don't want to encourage those behaviours and markets. While I love my "sought-after" 3 lines swaty... I wouldn't pay 60$ for one.

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I think $20.00 to $30.00 is a reasonable price for all but the most rare barber hones. I was very surprised to see what they're selling for now. I got most of mine for $10.00 to $15.00.