My wife just returned from Japan and picked up a new stone for me. Price was US$500. I don't know anything about it yet, and have not tried it. Size is (roughly) in cm: 15 x 8 x 2.5, or in inches: 6 x 3.25 x 1.
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My wife just returned from Japan and picked up a new stone for me. Price was US$500. I don't know anything about it yet, and have not tried it. Size is (roughly) in cm: 15 x 8 x 2.5, or in inches: 6 x 3.25 x 1.
This is ugly looking stone. it will be sooo beautiful if you send it to me.
congratulations YOU ARE 1 lucky man.
And here is a picture of a stone we picked up for someone else. He can speak up if he wishes too.
yes i would say second one is really beautiful. I am sure i will get that one soon.
Does anyone knows what it says?
Thank you Jeffus
Wow, those are such beautiful stones! I now know a jnat is on my next list of hones to get. Thanks for the pictures, please post more with results!! Lol
That is not helping my JHAD!!!
Beautiful stones ya got there :)
Nice Goban and nice stones!
The board was from my father-in-law's set. Had to get new pieces though (also called stones). Fun and challenging game.Quote:
Originally Posted by thanks
I'm curious about how your wife wound up with what she got. What specs did she ask for? How do you know what you get - other than trying it out some time after purchase? Very interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
I gave her a price range and had her ask for something hard and fine for final finishing of western straight. She took a picture of one of my straights and my Nakayama Kiita so she had examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodash
The first store she went to the guy was rude and would not help. We guess because she is a female, because he was nice to a man who came in while she was there.
At the next store the guy did not want to sell to someone who would not be using the stone, but he relented and gave her several choices. There were no stones between US$200 and $500, and she said there was not much choice for the $200 stone. But there were several options at $500 and I had her just pick one randomly - and she chose based upon color.
She brought them back in her check-in luggage, and they survived, yeah. I should also mention that she is from Japan.
Hopefully I get off work early enough to try it tonight. Want to lacquer it first, but don't want to wait 2 weeks before trying (apply 1 coat and wait 1 week, apply 2nd coat and wait another).
It's an expensive gamble when buying J-nats, and this will be my last time (let's hope). My coticule with water gives an acceptable touch up, so I can live with that if need be, and just have Sham do the honing when needed.
regards
Intereting story. Makes sense. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
Looks like she chose well!! :beer1:Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
A relevant detail, to be sure. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
Beautiful stones, thanks for posting them. The yake shading on that first stone is gorgeous. If it hones anywhere close to how it looks, you have a real winner.
Interesting play on words...Quote:
Originally Posted by thanks
Go stones are slate and shell. I wonder
what type of hone the slate used to make
Go playing stones from would make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodash
At ALL of the hone shops I went to in Kyoto, they had a honing station and encouraged me to try any stones before using them. So, if you're going, take a razor. I was stupid, and didn't.
As for specs, you want something hard and fine. Most of the honeshop owners I talked to (including the one that was rude to Jeffus' wife, which I feel bad about for recommending it) were very familiar with sharpening, and had some idea about razors, but they all emphasized that trying was the best way to know. Tanaka even talked me into trying out the stones at his shop with a plane blade, emphasizing that of course it was different from a razor but was better than nothing.
Wow - I didnt know that they had shops dedicated to hones in Japan. I assumed they had knife shops, with hones, but dedicate hone shops? What a great country.
Sounds like a Pilgramige is in order :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mijbil
My wife would tie me up and bury me in the closet if I ever mentioned I'd be going to store dedicated to hones :p
Kyoto being what it is, they have them there. But most of the shops are actually distributors/wholesalers, who happen to have storefronts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijbil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodash
Why would you have to wait two weeks? What laq takes a week to cure?
>>>>whoops quoted the wrong thread, but still why 2 weeks?
That's what Old_School taught me, so I'll stick with it. Japanese lacquer.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
But the guy at the store did tell Keiko that we don't really need that specialty lacquer and can just use any type of sealant. This rock appears very dense and does not seem likely to fall apart easily.
Not sure I will have much choice here in the States though. Will just have to get what I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
You don't need to lacquer it at all. You can if you want to, but...really, it's not necessary.
That's OK - never stopped me from responding.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
Now, where was I.....?
urushi dries in a few weeks, cashew lacquer dries in a day or two depending how thick you use it. I have been told that really any type of lacquer will work too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
If the stone does not have a crack or lines that it can split along you do not have to lacquer. If I am not wrong in Japan, the stones are left outdoors and temperature changes can cause splitting. Lacquering the stone prevents that.
you have been misinformed.
Urushi which I have used many many times can be cured in two days- sometimes one. in the proper conditions. It should never be applied in an especially thick coating as sometimes the outer surface will form a skin and leave the interior uncured. very messy.
Kashew is just an oil based paint. I have never used it- but i have heard it dries just like other oil basedpaint.
other sealers will work but it would be best to use a material that will not soak in deeply-especially those that soak up a lot of water.
I dont think you can say accurately that these stones need no coating. We can say "it depends"; however, the idea that they were stored outside historically is just silly. The only time they were stored outside is in their natural condition on or under the ground.
Kevin,
I used it and looks like any other lacquer to me.
By consistency and appearance cashew lacquer is not paint am I wrong?
Urushi is lacquer. Everything else is attempt to mimic its appearance. Or has split of from "japanning" and become clear coat.
I have not researched Cashew, kashew very much. It was developed in the 1930's i believe as a safe alternative, and cheaper, and easier to use than urushi.
Like oil paint kashew dries / cures via evaporation; wheres urushi does not.
urushi cures from a chemical reaction with water vapor.
i just looked up what Namikawa states about cashew, it is synthetic while urushi is natural.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
Urushi also causes severe allergic reactions, but in any case cashew worked very well for me.
I guess I'm misinformed, then. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
The urushi I've used took a week to dry between coats on my stones. I used it straight out of the bottle, and the thickness was like molasses. Dries hard like a thick acrylic jacket, though.
In fairness, I've been told by a knowledgeable source that cashew or modern lacquer serves the same purpose, and doesn't give the amber hue that urushi does.
This is a great direction for this thread, thank you for talking about lacquer.
Sounds exactly like the stuff I bought from Old_School. Trying to find some from an art store in the Seattle area that has some, told this place might:Quote:
Originally Posted by FatboySlim
Art Supplies from Daniel Smith Art Materials
regards,
jeff
urushi comes in different colors, red, black and yellow or clear, you probably had the yellow/clear one.Quote:
Originally Posted by FatboySlim
Cashew is very thick out of the can, and dries in ~1 day.
It bullet proofs the stone.
http://i50.tinypic.com/27y1mk1.jpg
Jeff, I bought mine from Old_School, too, in the little plastic bottles. I don't know how representative it is of all urushi, as it's the only urushi I've used. I have two other stones that came with lacquer already applied, which I'm sure is urushi. Urushi seems to have a very distinctive smell and texture even when dried/cured, that I like very much.
As thick and difficult as it was to work with, and slow to fully dry (due to the thickness), I'm very happy with the results.
I coated both the sides and the bottom of my stones, which took a fair amount of urushi. I have since learned that traditionally, only the sides of the stone are coated, not the entire bottom. In spite of my going overboard, I like it.
Other than the amber hue, the thickness and hardness reminds me of old-fashioned bars that have coins encased in lacquer. i go for old-fashioned stuff in general, so this appeals to me, and I don't regret going overboard. My Nakayama Asagi is now like a prehistoric insect encased in amber. :)
When I told a friend in Japan about this, his response was along the lines of "Real urushi?! Nobody uses that any more. Modern lacquer is clear so it doesn't color the stone, and it has the same protective properties as real urushi, but isn't toxic." But, I really wanted to use genuine urushi on my stone just to be completely traditional Japanese, so I don't regret it.
Maybe there's a thinner urushi mixture out there, or maybe I could have used turpentine to thin it. But I hate the smell of turpentine, and love the smell of urushi, wet or dry. It has a very old fashioned, organic smell that is somehow familiar to me, like something from childhood that I can't quite place. Maybe something similar to urushi was used in paint many years ago, and I'm picking up on that, I don't know.
Stefan, that is BEAUTIFUL! The chisel cuts are like modern art. :bow
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
there are several links available via google that will explain the basics of proper curing techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by FatboySlim
There are different grades of true urushi and the higher grades used in Japan for the really fantastic traditional craft items are always produced with domestically grown urushi from the Toxicodendron vernicifluum tree. The lower grades of urushi may come from China or even Thailand where the cost of production is lower but the tree is basically the same. The tree that produces urushi is very similar to the Poison Sumac tree found in the U.S..
When I worked for a short while in Japan as a carpenter in the 1970s I had the honor of learning the basic technique of applying urushi. In traditional homes a few posts and some beams are coated with urushi, and I remember that the head carpenters worked on these during rainy days in a tent set up inside the shop for this purpose only. Not everyone in the crew was allowed to apply urushi, and I think the offer to me created a certain animosity amongst the other crew. After I left that job I went to a urushi shop to buy a jar to bring back with me to the states. The smallest size they had was equal to a little less than 1 cup. The cost was $140. I left it on the shelf needless to say.
Usually urushi is applied in extremely thin coats and although I do not know what the thinner is, the product probably is ordered from the urushi shop formulated specifically for the task at hand. I have also seen the handmade brushes used for applying urushi to curved and concave surfaces and even the brushes cost hundreds of dollars. And these were 1970s dollars, but the brushes were a lifetime investment and deemed as professional tools.
I know that some awasedo sharpening stones when coated with urushi, have a layer of mulberry paper laid in between coats to add a fiborus mesh or netting. I myself do not coat my stones, the ones I use or the ones I sell. The stones I use I do not coat because I frankly don't use them that often. I figure you need to be splashing an awful lot of water on them in order for the stone to be so over soaked to expand enough to split. If you do have a stone with a distinctive inclusion, no harm in coating the stone. I sold a $3200 Nakayama stone (my NAKAYAMA #6)to a preeminent furniture maker on the east coat that had a serious inclusion, it was one of those I don't need it but I can't live without it moments. He coated it with the urushi/paper/urushi technique, and it has become one of his "go to" stones.
In the retail trade urushi can be used to cover up flaws in stones. A really great stone like the above maybe worth taking a chance but any stone at retail should be scrutinized if there is a coat of urushi or anything else that is opaque.
Personally I feel the stone should be able to breathe, to expel any moisture through evaporation naturally through the sides and the back. This is fine under light occasional useage, however if you are working your stones all day long like in a professional shop you may want to coat your stone. I think it is a bad idea to lay an uncoated natural stone on a wet towel because of the absorbability factor, and I use my stones mounted either in a commerical stone holder or a dedicated wooden stone holder with drainage holes to outflow any extra water. I would have a hard time believing that anyone sharpening straight razors would be spending hour after hour on any one particular stone flushed with water to warrent fully coating a stone. just my 2 cents, Alx
Thanks Alex. In my ignorance I always thought. well now, they must have thought highly of this piece to go to such effort to keep it preserved. I never imagined a cover-up. I will keep it in mind if I ever get another stone.
Kevin
No, I think you are on to something. A special stone may need some stabilization, and urushi is the correct and most expensive way to do it. You may find a stone already coated and done so to keep it in play so it can be enjoyed. But unless there is an inclusion, a clear stone would not necessarly need a patch job. Alx
Hmmm. Well, Alex, you've got me thinking. When I was at Tanaka hones, I saw that probably 90% of the hones there were lacquered on the sides. He had a whole rack of them curing (he uses Cashew, not Urushi. I'm sure his Urushi costs would have been through the roof...) when I was in there. Should I be suspicious of his hones?
The lacquered stones went from $50 koppa to $4000 okudo suita benchstones...
very nice .......Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffus
Hello Jim
I do not think that Tanaka would continue in business, and he is a mine owner too, if he was covering flaws in so many stones. They are most likely very good stones and it is probably his understanding of the market that he is targeting, that providing a service by sealing up his stones prior to selling them will help his sales. At $4000 though I would want to see all of the sides and back of the stone, but if the lacquer is clear enough, well even then I would like to have a clear view of the stone at all angles. Like with Stefans stone, you can pretty well see the stone through the sealer, at at those price points that should be sufficient. Alx
Alex,Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
I just want to say I went full strength with the cashew lacquer on this stone, and its an overkill I think :)
quick update on the yellow stone:
With just water it is amazing for a touch up. Really really amazing. Smooth and crisp. Used it with a T. Hessen and Fil #13 DT and they shaved beautifully.
Loaned it to Sham for a while. He said that with slurry it is very slow but creates a very sharp and fine edge.
Lucked out considering wife picked it out based upon color.