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I was wondering is a 12000 grit Chinese polishing stone would be a good, cost-effective alternative to more expensive stones such as the Belgian coticle or Shapton. Any help would be great. I was planning on using a Norton 4000/8000 and then finishing with a 12000 before stropping on Tony's legendary red latigo.
The basic "Chinese 12k" so often spoken of here isn't really a replacement for a coticule or a Shapton, but it's a nice, versatile, and forgiving polisher in it's own right. It's almost a sacrilege to say so... but I like it even better than some very classy German finishers I've tried. I probably just need more experience with the big-name stones.
A lot of guys report very good results with that stone. You can't beat the price if you get a good one. I was urged to get the razor shave ready with the 4/8 and shave test. If it is good at that level go to your 12k to see about refining and improving the shave even more.
yes it is a cost effective alternative. as far as results go you will not know until you try it.
as far as i can tell there is a fair variation among those, and the 12000 grit that is being attached to these is in my opinion poor historical inaccuracy.
I finally got around to buying and playing with a C12K, a few weeks back. Personally, i found it to produce a nice shaving edge over-all. I would be more inclined to call it a C10K, but that could just be my particular natural stone. I also think, one would benefit considerably if they followed it with a pasted strop as well.
Although, they are slow, relatively speaking; for the price, its one of the best natural hones on the market, imo...again, for the price. :)
Thanks,
Mac
So how did the Chinese 12K get the grit designation ? I went to the website where I got mine here at Woodcraft and that is what the blurb in the description says. "Extremely fine (12,000+) grit natural water stone quarried in the Guangxi province of China." I' haven't a clue what the actual grit is but I'm just saying, this is probably where the notion that we see repeated on the forums came from. I agree with Mac that bang for the buck it is a good finisher if you get a good stone. I'll stick with my Escher though. :)
To my knowledge, there is no official, standard or even organized ratings for natural hones and, to be honest, I have my doubts about the veracity of synthetic hone grit ratings, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
With natural stones, the grit rating is typically going to be someone's best guess and it's hard to tell whether that guess was made by someone who wanted to guess high, wanted to guess low, knew what they were talking about or were otherwise motivated to even be in the ballpark of what might be right.
At least with synthetics, there will be some consistency, although one manufacturer's 8000 grit could be 6000 to 10000 grit (making it really a 6000) where another manufacturer could include only highly sorted grit of 8,000 or better. You've got this sort of issue with virtually all abrasives, though.
I'm considering the idea of doing scratch pattern evaluation and measuring at very high magnification to grade abrasives. I think that the scratch pattern tells us more than anything else with width, average scratch lines per millimeter and the shape of the scratch (sharpness of the grit) would be excellent for scientific grading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
I think that is a great idea, but even that has a limitation as depth,,, All things being equal a slight difference in pressure/direction would change the depth of the scratch patterns... Zowada has some great pics here and there are more pics around the froum by other people that all seem to tell different stories when it comes to scratch patterns... Looking right there, in the Wiki, I am seeing that the $34 Chinese is the smoothest finisher made, but my face says otherwise...
I am just not all that convinced that this "Art of Honing" can ever be very scientific... JMHO
To the OP:
As you can see in those pics, the Chinese stone can be a great finisher, But it requires many more laps then most other stones, which with every lap increases the odds of a mis-cue that messes up a lot of the foundation work...
Great idea PapaBull!
In my tool and die days some of the parts made required a specific surface finish and the measurements were performed by a machine shop inspector. This type of inspection (surface roughness) would incorperate depth of scratches into the final surface roughness measurement. I do not have access to this type of equipment any more but if someone does, this would be the test to perform. Do be aware that original surface finish and handling after honing may effect the results.
Here's a link that describes the process. http://www.engineersedge.com/surface_finish.htm
It is the first site I selected to read and I am sure a Google search may provide better results.
I've done series of tests with the 200X scope similar to what Tim has on his site, but I was thinking more along the lines of higher resolution and 1000 to 1600x magnification from an industrial scope. While I feel there would still be some "deviation" based on scratch depth and what have you, comparing samples handled in the same fashion would at least put them on a somewhat level playing field. Additional study of the abrasive structure at high magnification can tell us a lot, too. And while to some degree, the mystery of honing micro-edges may be part of the appeal, there's some value to be had in seeing what's really going on, in my opinion. :)
I've got some 200,000 grit abrasive coming in this week that I'm really looking forward to checking out. :)
Interesting! - I am pretty new to this and trying to understand grit-finess seems only to get more difficult the more I read!...charming in a way! - I like when things are not all science but also feeling, test and trial and ultimately art!...Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Anyway! - how many laps should one expect to do on a C12K comming from a ca. 8K hone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
Now that side of the equation would be very very interesting to me, with actual pics of the stone surface at high mag...
Now this is getting way more interesting :) I wonder if you could quantify the scratch pattern, sorta like what JoeD was saying, as to a actual test block at a constant pressure for each test stone :confused:....
Since this is a natural hone and we all hone differently, itQuote:
Originally Posted by MadZen
may make sense to start out with half the laps you used on the 8K.
Try with and without lather.
If the edge improves over the 8K try more laps
until it stops improving the edge.
You may also find that it hones better as a touch up
hone... i.e. do not follow the Norton 8K but shave
off the Norton 8K and touch up on the C12K once a week,
once a month.
Someone here mentioned that he found that 100 laps
were needed for his razors.
As we know from Belgian hones the way that a hone
scratches depends a lot on how it is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadZen
Again here comes the vague answer, of as many as it takes, but in reality somewhere between 30-100...There are just to many variables to try and get closer than that.. Sorry
Actually Tom's answer above is way better than mine :)
Forum Bump!
Has anyone ever tried these stones? Any beginner tips? Do they normally come with a slurry stone? I see some sources say yes. If not, what type of slurry stone should I get? Should I chip off a piece? Mine is en route, along with the Norton 4k/8k. I cant wait!
Some of the Guangxi stones have proved to be good finishers but the strike rate isn't all that good. I've owned 2 examples and both are sub-standard, that is they do not improve an edge that has been honed to a satisfactory level on a Norton 8k. You may have more luck, at least they're not expensive.
BTW, the opinions on my hones don't come from brief tests. Myself and another very experienced honer have given them every chance and the b&%g#s still don't perform:(
So, as with everything else in this game, your mileage may vary - good luck.
You're kidding , right ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dghardyjr
Lottsa info here:
Chinese Guangxi Hones - Straight Razor Place Library
I skimmed over the link and it looks like a wealth of info! Ill check it out!
The bottom line is they are a crap-shoot. Some can polish, some can’t, they are natural and all are different, some from one side to the other. They are hard stones and will need to be lapped flat and smooth.
Some can be improved by burnishing like a hard Ark, not using slurry, they do not slurry easily and the slurry is not friable.
Most are not finer than 8k. You would have a more consistent and comfortable edge stropping on razor quality Chrome Oxide after a good Norton 8K edge.
Adding a Natural finisher is not recommended for a new guy learning to hone. The finish stone always gets the blame, and rarely is the issue caused at the finish, but at getting the bevels to meet evenly and fully.
I've got one of these stones. First thing you need is the will power to lap it. They're hard as h#!! And mine came rough sawn which meant a LOT of lapping. Then you need the will power to polish it. I worked mine up to 2000 grit sand paper, then hit it with both the 4 and 8k sides of my Norton hone. Now that I can see my reflection in the stone, it puts a pretty good edge on things. The last thing you'll need is a good deal of patience, because it cuts slower than molasses in January.
It should come with a slurry stone. Polish one side of that while you're at it, and chamfer it's edges so you don't dig into the hone while building slurry. Do the first set of strokes with a medium slurry, and water it down as your polish gets better. After about 100 to 150 strokes you should be good. Did I mention this thing cuts slow? Because it cuts slow.
It took me a lot of trial and error to figure out how to use the C12k effectively. Now that I've got it right, I love the hone. Whether it's worth the work to save the money you'd spend on a faster cutting finisher I can't say. I don't have a Belgian coticule or Thuringian to compare it to. And it seems to be much like my small black Arkansas as far as cutting speed and final polish goes. I still want an Arkansas hone, but I'm content with my C12K for the time being.
Edit: my slurry stone is made of the same hard-as-frikkin-diamond stone as the hone itself. If it doesn't have one, I might suggest using it without the slurry. Might cut even slower, might not. I'm still not entirely convinced that using one speeds the process up any, it's just fun to play with.
UuAwesome write-up and description of using this stone. Extremely hard, takes forever to lap it. And did Marshal mention it is sloow! Lol! Also don't have anything to compare it to like a coticule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
That being said, it does put a super smooth polished edge on a blade that shaves oh so nice. Only had the patience to put a truely polished edge on a couple of my favorite razors and to say 100 laps, he ain't kiddin, but the effort was worth it.
So if you have the time and patience, this stone is fairly cheap and works well.
Loose SiC powder, slurried on glass will make short work of any stone. You can buy down to 40 grit & maybe lower.
Stones with saw marks start on the pavement.
I'll remember that if I ever make the mistake of buying a rough cut hone again lol.
Gotgrit.com has all the Silicone Carbide grits you will need, from 60 up to 500 grit, a ¼ lb of each is plenty, you just need a table spoon or two of each grit. Finish on Wet & Dry. Will cost you about $15 for all the grits.
A steel cookie sheet on a hard flat surface will contain the mess, and it is messy and a workout.
Thanks for all the info, I think ill try the sand paper on it. Ill let you guys know how it turns out, going to get a few cheap razors to try it out on
Here's some tips and tricks to try with your Guangxi stone.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-cnat-ect.html
Looks a lot like what I do, but without the intermediate steps on the 4k and 8k hone. Probably takes me about the same amount of time from bevel set to finish if I'm moving at a decent pace, with fewer strokes over all, but time spent switching between stones and doing prep work and checks between.
I agree that it doesn't need to take hours, and that slow cutting isnt necessarily bad. In fact I prefer it, but It is something people need to be aware of. It isnt a 20-40 strokes and youre done hone. This kinda makes me want to play with It again, but I don't want to dull one of my razors just to try your slurry process lol.