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Howdy all,
so I wanted to ask what you all think of an edge off of a coticule?
I have shaved with other razors not from coticules, they feel sharper but the coticule shaves just as smooth.
How is it possible that this edge may not seem as sharp but still gives an amazing close shave?
The best explanation I've read is that the abrasive, garnets, are larger and because of this leave shallower striations in the bevel. Whatever the reason I do agree that the shave from a razor well sharpened and finished with a coticule is a smooth and comfortable one.
They are sprinkled with magical fairy dust before leaving the quarry.
I've got a very thick beard and very sensitive skin and so far have found the coti (atleast the one my brother has) followed by CroOx to be an awesome combo for my face. Under a close look it may not be the cleanist looking edge but for me it makes for an awesome shave. There are a lot of different thoughts here about the coticule,good,bad,and in between. I remember somebody saying that the edge off the coticule seemed to seek hair and not skin, so far this has held very true for me. The edge off the C12K and other higher grit stones just seemed a bit harsh to me. A point here would be to notice that I keep saying "To or For Me" over and over here, all that matters is that you are happy with and enjoy the edges you are using. It doesn't matter how that edge was put there, so long as it preforms well for you. Alright, I have rambled on long enough :soapbox: lol. Just my thoughts.....
[QUOTE=basil;607370]Howdy all,
What are you trying to say?Quote:
I have shaved with other razors not from coticules, they feel sharper but the coticule shaves just as smooth.
you have shaved with other razors and they feel sharper?
coticule shaves just as smooth?(does this means coticule edge feels dull to you?)
it just doesn't make sense? or am i missing something?
It is not possible. if it is doesn't seems sharp will not give close shave. it will give to you dull edge shave. amazingly won't be as close as you think.Quote:
How is it possible that this edge may not seem as sharp but still gives an amazing close shave?
You will need to compare edges from different stones and see what happens.
Coticules are natural stones and their edge will be different.
Some of them will act like 4k level and edge will feel horrible.
Some is better you can get a good edge and shave comfortable but not as good as better finishing stones available out there.
if you can find Salm coticule that stone will make you very happy. you will not luck of dull feeling while you use that edge .
hope this helps.
I have a coticule stone and I like it. I use it mostly as a finisher after I hone on synthetic hones if the edge feels harsh. I have a large rotation though and a honing log so all my razors are either finished diferently or honed differently. I like the coticule edge, its very smooth if you need atg passes. The other day I took out my belgian blue hone and my coticule and honed a dull razor, the shave was great and was smooth for 15 hours, which is rare for me. I haven't touched those hones in months...maybe I should more often.
It really is a matter of taste, so try out the most you can before you buy a coticule.
For a very long time the Coticule was THE finisher for me. Even though I've added a vintage Escher and a Natural Japanese to the mix I still favor the coticule.
I think the way the coti edge shaves is partially the way the grit cuts, and partially the grit range. It's above an 8k, so it's definitely going to give you a great shave. The garnet shape and how they cut are, IMO, like Jimmy described.
It is a great edge, I just find I get better edges off finer hones (my Thurry and my Asagi, and even my C12k)
A lot has been posted on this very subject, the debate rages on......Quote:
Originally Posted by basil
As well, the coticule has a reputation for smoothing out a sharp edge that is too harsh, creating a good balance of sharp & smooth. Just my 2 cents.
I know I'm always mentioning the old barbers I knew in NJ that used the coticule but if you analyze it why did they ? There were many stones available to them. By then synthetics had come along and there were other naturals. IMO they used the "soap stone", as they called them, because of the smooth and comfortable edge obtained with them.
Those guys shaving one customer after another didn't want scary sharp with weepers and maybe irritation, let alone the possibility of a nick. With the coticule they got their edges sharp but smooth and comfortable. Most of all, somewhat forgiving in comparison with other alternatives. Just IMHO.
I shaved a customers head yesterday and his face . we normaly use use shavette which you have to have a extremly light touch with. the differance with the coticule edge was i felt i could just get stuck in with out any problems at all . So basicly very forgiving.
I like coticule edges, but my absolute favourite edge has got to be off my Maruichi. Wonderfully smooth and exceptionally sharp. I also really like the edge from my Charnley Forest.
I personally much prefer to finish my razors on a natural stone. I've tried edges off both the 16k Shapton (very sharp and polished, but a little too harsh for my tastes) and the 12k Naniwa, which was very sharp and smooth but just not quite as good as a natural..!
i absalutley agree i don't think you can beat the finish of any natural. I have tryed 10k naniwa and the the shave was shrp as hell but not as freindly for me. A good coticule /escher ch12k they all work well never tryed jap stones.
It's interesting to me that a coticle can be known for giving a smooth edge when the typical garnet grain size is a lot coarser (perhaps on the order of ~3-4x) than even a coarse stropping paste, and certainly WAY more coarse than any you would find in a more conventional finishing stone.
Finished with water, the garnets should be fully embedded in the stone which might reduce the 'effective size' of the exposed grain, and they're hard enough to polish, but still, they're very coarse....
I'll have to think about this some more..... :thinking:
I really like this subject.
Honing and the associated results is one of the most subjective areas in the sport. I always try to educate peoples thumb pads to the different feelings that you get from each of the finishing stones and associated pastes or sprays that follow. The differences are amazing. You can also actually feel these differences in the various strop leathers that are out there. Then you take these same differences that you feel on the thumb and apply them to shaving and surprisingly, the variation gets smaller. There are definite differences though in how easily the cutting goes and the associated glide of the razor. Again, this is so subjective for all of us...........:)
You can look through all the million powered microscopes in the world and view every imaginable drawing every done, try every technique that has been and will be developed and it still boils down to how the razor feels on your face.
The real differences from the feel of shaving, for me, come from the use of the finishing stones without pastes or sprays. The pastes and sprays do tend to equalize the results a lot in my opinion.
I am a big fan of the synthetics due to consistency and reliable results, but I love the results of my Eschers and Japanese finishers. I find the Coticule's I have tried, produce a credible edge and a nice shave and on an occasional razor a great shave, but not nearly as often as the synthetics or Escher or Japanese or Charnley for that matter. The only disclaimer is that this is my feelings regardless of all the razors I sharpen. I am demanding on my honing and want a razor to be a decent shaver first time and every time I take them to the hones. I am constantly in search of the perfect edge which fuels the fascination with experimenting with every conceivable stone and media. I have not met the perfect stone yet..........
You can follow what ever apostle or camp that you want and so long as what ever the stone is, produces the best results for you and then you can't go wrong. Now, the only problem is that you have to try a lot of stones on a lot of razors....... so what was the problem?????
Have fun,
Lynn
I have a coti combo. Using my coticule I agree with Lynn in that the edge is credible. I get a much better edge from my BBW. I don't know why - could be the hone, could be my dodgy touch-ups... but it feels a lot smoother.
I get a great edge from a coti, but I can get a fantastic edge if I add a step and use the thuri and a few laps on chromeox.
I think the bbw has a better keeness limit than a coticule. I use mine after a 1k bevel and then follow it with a coticule on just water, the edges are sharp and my face feels like a baby's when I'm done shaving.
I haven't been a fan of an edge off a coticule (IE. the sharpening step of honing), I can't get good results. That may be experience, I'm actually sure it is, but if I have a bbw I'd like to use it anyway.
All in all I still like synthetic hones the best followed by a natural finisher, an Escher or coticule. The Escher edge is sharper, imo.
I have a shapton 16K and I don't like it unless I smooth it with cerium or hit a finishing hone after. I think the naniwa 12K is much better for that step of honing.
I did find escher with water seeemed to improve my edge of coticule on some acasions. the .5 spray followed by 0.25 defanatley does improve keeness just five laps on each adds a nice glide and makes shave efortless. If you hit the max on your coticule you will love it even more . It's just hitting that point it takes lots of practice.
The garnet grain size on the BBW is even larger than on the coticle, but it does nothing for me with just water. Slurry on the BBW is another matter. But this just may be my youth and inexperience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disburden
(Well, my inexperience, anyway....)
I'm sorry but you guys are just so wrong,, The absolute best stone for finishing is my super secret liquid silver kronikly good stone that I found at the top of the Himalayan mountain that I climbed after receiving a vision from the aliens that abducted me...:)
This stone works perfectly on every single razor, and feels oh so good, on everybody's face... It magically makes all the variables, like skin type, beard type, and steel type, disappear and makes all edges great, but not too sharp either... Oh yeah it does this with only 20 feather light laps and you would never need a pasted strop after this stone either... Oh of course you could rub this stone on the thighs of a vestal virgin and obtain a special slurry that would enable you to set bevels perfectly too...
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:
I am only half kidding here...:)
Hmmmmm I wonder how that would taste ? :wQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
:) Darn I forgot the taste Jimmy, I was trying to hit everything too hehehee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubear
Gentlemen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Disburden
After the 16K try a few laps on the coticule. As long as you don't overdo it the edge should retain the sharpness of the Shapton yet obtain the smoothness from the coti, taking away some of the harshness.
In the same vein, I'm not a big fan of diamond paste, I find it harsh on my face sometimes. I'll give my razor the coticule treatment and
perhaps some chrome ox (which agrees more with my face than diamond) and I'm back in shaving bliss.
Is it true the Escher brand was more exclusive, expensive or harder to get back then?
Only a few days ago I found another coticule. After lapping it is quite thin. I meant to but skipped it- was going to use it as it was to see what sort of result the former user was getting from its radically dished surface. Both my laminated stones were for sure intended as razor hones.
I am sure somewhere out there is my Escher waiting to hook up. I have only made a dozen or so laps on a stone Lee had and gee whiz was that nice, obviously since i may have mentioned the same 10 times at least.
Having finer is still no reason not to appreciate each stone for what it does. High grit pastes and synthetics are easy to find and exactly(to a point)reliable as said. Nevertheless it is not the same as knowing what was expected from a skilled shave when your old vintage razor was new
They can perform and it really is a wonderful feeling.
As far as harsh edge vs. smooth edge is concerned, the difference between the two definitely exists. Bleeders and nicks from a sharp but harsh edge are not enjoyable at all.
I often resort to dia. paste and/or CrOx and/or Nakayama Maruichi to tame a harsh edge.
I am wondering if the type of steel has something to do with any of this. I recently honed a Frederick Reynolds for someone else and it took forever because of the somewhat harder steel of the Reynolds. As I was honing it, I noticed no hint of harshness at any time during the honing process.
I had no bleeders from the initial shave or any shave after that. Total 4 shaves.
Hard steel - smooth shave. Soft steel - harsh shave?????
You tell me................
i used diamond spray . Not harsh at all when used on felt and less laps is needed. To many laps oand the edge will be harsh as i found out with bio paste.
i have used coticule after paste etc and it will tame the edge
I was thinking today about what stones I would need to keep my razors shave sharp.
I am not looking to restore any old and rusted razors, I am just looking to keep what is already shave sharp sharp.
Right now I own a Arashiyama 6000 grit stone and a coticule. Do you recomend any kind of natural stone that can be used ad a finisher above the coti?
I know many of you would say pasted strops and what not, but I'm trying to see what else there is.
I like my balsa hone with CrO, and my SRD modular paddle with .5 micron diamond spray.
coticule is all you will need .just try it with water only.see if you like it . takes from 30 to 100 laps depeding on your coti. i 'd start at 30 and so on.
Diamond seems to be very subjective (as is everything else in this sport); you either love it or you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by gary haywood
Just had another shave with the coti edge razor.
Can't beleive hiow perfect and smooth jt is.
once you hone the razor well on coticule they are smooth and take some beating. I would say i have had some magical edge of coticule that have been hard to match on other hones. even the same razor on the same coticule. basil are you honing on the coticule from start to finish . or using it as a finishing hone after other hones? iQuote:
Originally Posted by basil
When I first got the coticule I just used it as a finisher after using a 6000 grit stone.
Now I've been using just the coti from start to finish. Starting with a very thick slurry and slowly working from there
Well i dont have a coticule but im sure that Gary used one on my Kings Prize razor and that sure is a good shave :)
ian
i sure did, i use coticule for most of the honing except may be i will use 1k naniwa or dmt1200 then coticule followed by paste if i'm not happy with sharpness. its realy that simple and it worksQuote:
Originally Posted by ianp1966
Quote:
Originally Posted by HNSB
HNSB says "magical fairy dust". Lynn says honing is part of a "sport"! My wife thinks I'm just trying to find testosterone lost in the great Emasculation of 2008. It's no wonder I'm so old and confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I'm still going to get me a coticule sometime, though.
HHEHEHEHEHHE:beer2:Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy52
I was hoping someone would get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl